Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Judicial Review: Time to dump Marbury v. Madison
TakeBackTheCourt.com ^ | 7/9/2005 | Ruben Obregon

Posted on 07/09/2005 3:15:41 PM PDT by 1stFreedom

Lost in all the hoopla over potential nominees and "strict constructionists" is the battle over Judicial Review.

Judicial review was "created" in Marbury v. Madison. Nowhere in the constitution are the Federal Courts granted Judicial Review. They simply assumed that power in Marbury v. Madison.

Recently, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit upheld a lower court decision that threw out a federal ban on partial birth abortions since it did not provide a "health" exception.

The problem is, the US Court of Appeals doesn't have the constitutional power to override Congress, yet it did.

A "strict constructionist" who adheres to Marbury v. Madison and the flawed principle of stare decisis (doctrine of precedent/settled law) won't do any good for the nation. It doesn't matter if George Bush were to fill the court with nine "strict constructionists" if they accepted stare decisis and Marbury V. Madison.

If you want to take the courts back from judicial tyrants, it's time to call for justices who won't be bound by terrible precedent and who recognize the authority of Congress and the inability of the court to rule on congressional legislation.

It's time to call for nominees who refuse to be bound by illicit precedents and illicit power grabs. Now is the window of opportunity to fix the courts, and it will take much more than nominees whose only qualification is that they are a "strict constructionist."

It's essential that you call your Senators and the White House Monday to demand nomination and approval of nominess who reject both Marbury V. Madison and "stare decisis".


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: judicialactivism; judicialreview; marburyvmadison; scotus
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 141-160161-180181-200 ... 301-309 next last
To: Cboldt
there is an authority that most of the people SUBSRCIBE TO, outside of the law. In that context, making law is relatively easy.

There's no doubt our problems have multiplied as our population has become more diverse (the Civil War occured because a fundamental differece of opinion on a very basic issue was not resolved when the Constitution was written). So far we've managed. One can only hope for the future.

161 posted on 07/09/2005 5:57:55 PM PDT by liberallarry
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 151 | View Replies]

To: Cboldt
I believe there is a spiritual battle going on as well, a literal battle over our souls.

You are certainly correct even though I, as an unbeliever, might have phrased it differently.

162 posted on 07/09/2005 6:03:05 PM PDT by liberallarry
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 159 | View Replies]

To: liberallarry
There's no doubt our problems have multiplied as our population has become more diverse

That was my general point. Blackstone's premise, and the premise of Western civ, is that there are immutable forces at some point. Problems ALWAYS multiply with diversity. Not being judegmental, that is just basic fact. Human nature admits adhering to a belief system. Sometimes those belief systems clash. Voila - history.

163 posted on 07/09/2005 6:09:29 PM PDT by Cboldt
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 161 | View Replies]

To: 1stFreedom

Okay - what is your game plan!


164 posted on 07/09/2005 6:09:48 PM PDT by CyberAnt (President Bush: "America is the greatest nation on the face of the earth")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: spunkets
"There are no absolute rights."

Sure their are. Here's a short listing: Life and the individual sovereignty of will that derive from it,

If you're convicted of a capital crime, the state can take your life. Hence that right is not absolute.

The right to religeous freedom, including expression and exercise thereof.

If your religion calls for human sacrifice, you can't carry out that part of your faith. That right has limits. Ergo not absolute.

165 posted on 07/09/2005 6:32:10 PM PDT by ReignOfError
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 128 | View Replies]

To: Noachian

"When has impeachment ever worked against a Supreme Court judge?"


Justice Samuel Chase . . . and he wasn't even convicted.


166 posted on 07/09/2005 6:33:43 PM PDT by YHAOS (Western morons are more dangerous than Islamic lunatics)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: PeoplesRepublicOfWashington
" To what do you think the words, "In all other Cases before mentioned,""

"--to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;--between Citizens of different States, --between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, or a citizen of a State and the State under the 14th.

Then: "the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make."

The ability to proscribe regs is clear enough. The ability pick and choose which acts of Congress, or the States are subject to judicial review and the 2nd Clause's, "with such exceptions to law and fact isn't". The exceptions to law and fact includes such things as evidentiary rules. The exceptions do not extend to allowing Congress to exclude Judicial review itself, or from excluding certain acts of Congress, or any lower body from that judicial review. Clause 1 states' "The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made". If the founders had intended to allow Congress to limit any case(s) of law, they would have included the mention here and not in the second clause with process and structure entries. It makes no sense to have a court limited to what it may consider, by the ones creating the subject matter otherwise subject to consideration. Especially when the initial and fundamental jurisdictional clause is given as, in all cases", w/o exception.

IOWs, the mention of "exception (of law)" in the 2nd clause, in no way limits what acts of COngress, or a lower jurisdiction can review. The only limit(s) to that, is what the court itself may choose to make.

167 posted on 07/09/2005 6:34:37 PM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 150 | View Replies]

To: Brilliant
Someone has go to be the Final Authority

Why? I've seen discussions of the founding era where the read seems to have been that the founder's scripted us a dynamic balance and not a final authority. Look up "popular sovereignity".

168 posted on 07/09/2005 6:35:55 PM PDT by bvw
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: 1stFreedom
The doctrine of precedent is an invaluable control of judicial discretion. There is a little more to the doctrine than merely one precedent controlling a future similar fact pattern.

I have toyed with the idea, but not thought on it deeply, about giving congress the power to nullify a Supreme Court decision. Say a two thirds majority plus approval by the President. The States, a certain percentage, could void a Supreme Court Decision effecting them. Just a thought.

169 posted on 07/09/2005 6:41:36 PM PDT by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: CyberAnt

Here was a Democrat proposal:

Fireside Chat on Reorganization of the Judiciary
March 9, 1937:

"Last Thursday I described in detail certain economic problems which everyone admits now face the Nation. For the many messages which have come to me after that speech, and which it is physically impossible to answer individually, I take this means of saying "thank you."

Tonight, sitting at my desk in the White House, I make my first radio report to the people in my second term of office.

I am reminded of that evening in March, four years ago, when I made my first radio report to you. We were then in the midst of the great banking crisis.

Soon after, with the authority of the Congress, we asked the Nation to turn over all of its privately held gold, dollar for dollar, to the Government of the United States.

Today's recovery proves how right that policy was.

But when, almost two years later, it came before the Supreme Court its constitutionality was upheld only by a five-to-four vote. The change of one vote would have thrown all the affairs of this great Nation back into hopeless chaos. In effect, four Justices ruled that the right under a private contract to exact a pound of flesh was more sacred than the main objectives of the Constitution to establish an enduring Nation.

In 1933 you and I knew that we must never let our economic system get completely out of joint again - that we could not afford to take the risk of another great depression.

We also became convinced that the only way to avoid a repetition of those dark days was to have a government with power to prevent and to cure the abuses and the inequalities which had thrown that system out of joint.

We then began a program of remedying those abuses and inequalities - to give balance and stability to our economic system - to make it bomb-proof against the causes of 1929.

Today we are only part-way through that program - and recovery is speeding up to a point where the dangers of 1929 are again becoming possible, not this week or month perhaps, but within a year or two.

National laws are needed to complete that program. Individual or local or state effort alone cannot protect us in 1937 any better than ten years ago.

It will take time - and plenty of time - to work out our remedies administratively even after legislation is passed. To complete our program of protection in time, therefore, we cannot delay one moment in making certain that our National Government has power to carry through.

Four years ago action did not come until the eleventh hour. It was almost too late.

If we learned anything from the depression we will not allow ourselves to run around in new circles of futile discussion and debate, always postponing the day of decision.

The American people have learned from the depression. For in the last three national elections an overwhelming majority of them voted a mandate that the Congress and the President begin the task of providing that protection - not after long years of debate, but now.

The Courts, however, have cast doubts on the ability of the elected Congress to protect us against catastrophe by meeting squarely our modern social and economic conditions.

We are at a crisis in our ability to proceed with that protection. It is a quiet crisis. There are no lines of depositors outside closed banks. But to the far-sighted it is far-reaching in its possibilities of injury to America.

I want to talk with you very simply about the need for present action in this crisis - the need to meet the unanswered challenge of one-third of a Nation ill-nourished, ill-clad, ill-housed.

Last Thursday I described the American form of Government as a three horse team provided by the Constitution to the American people so that their field might be plowed. The three horses are, of course, the three branches of government - the Congress, the Executive and the Courts. Two of the horses are pulling in unison today; the third is not. Those who have intimated that the President of the United States is trying to drive that team, overlook the simple fact that the President, as Chief Executive, is himself one of the three horses.

It is the American people themselves who are in the driver's seat.

It is the American people themselves who want the furrow plowed.

It is the American people themselves who expect the third horse to pull in unison with the other two.

I hope that you have re-read the Constitution of the United States in these past few weeks. Like the Bible, it ought to be read again and again.

It is an easy document to understand when you remember that it was called into being because the Articles of Confederation under which the original thirteen States tried to operate after the Revolution showed the need of a National Government with power enough to handle national problems. In its Preamble, the Constitution states that it was intended to form a more perfect Union and promote the general welfare; and the powers given to the Congress to carry out those purposes can be best described by saying that they were all the powers needed to meet each and every problem which then had a national character and which could not be met by merely local action.

But the framers went further. Having in mind that in succeeding generations many other problems then undreamed of would become national problems, they gave to the Congress the ample broad powers "to levy taxes ... and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States."

That, my friends, is what I honestly believe to have been the clear and underlying purpose of the patriots who wrote a Federal Constitution to create a National Government with national power, intended as they said, "to form a more perfect union ... for ourselves and our posterity."

For nearly twenty years there was no conflict between the Congress and the Court. Then Congress passed a statute which, in 1803, the Court said violated an express provision of the Constitution. The Court claimed the power to declare it unconstitutional and did so declare it. But a little later the Court itself admitted that it was an extraordinary power to exercise and through Mr. Justice Washington laid down this limitation upon it: "It is but a decent respect due to the wisdom, the integrity and the patriotism of the legislative body, by which any law is passed, to presume in favor of its validity until its violation of the Constitution is proved beyond all reasonable doubt."

But since the rise of the modern movement for social and economic progress through legislation, the Court has more and more often and more and more boldly asserted a power to veto laws passed by the Congress and State Legislatures in complete disregard of this original limitation.

In the last four years the sound rule of giving statutes the benefit of all reasonable doubt has been cast aside. The Court has been acting not as a judicial body, but as a policy-making body.

When the Congress has sought to stabilize national agriculture, to improve the conditions of labor, to safeguard business against unfair competition, to protect our national resources, and in many other ways, to serve our clearly national needs, the majority of the Court has been assuming the power to pass on the wisdom of these acts of the Congress - and to approve or disapprove the public policy written into these laws.

That is not only my accusation. It is the accusation of most distinguished justices of the present Supreme Court. I have not the time to quote to you all the language used by dissenting justices in many of these cases. But in the case holding the Railroad Retirement Act unconstitutional, for instance, Chief Justice Hughes said in a dissenting opinion that the majority opinion was "a departure from sound principles," and placed "an unwarranted limitation upon the commerce clause." And three other justices agreed with him.

In the case of holding the AAA unconstitutional, Justice Stone said of the majority opinion that it was a "tortured construction of the Constitution." And two other justices agreed with him.

In the case holding the New York minimum wage law unconstitutional, Justice Stone said that the majority were actually reading into the Constitution their own "personal economic predilections," and that if the legislative power is not left free to choose the methods of solving the problems of poverty, subsistence, and health of large numbers in the community, then "government is to be rendered impotent." And two other justices agreed with him.

In the face of these dissenting opinions, there is no basis for the claim made by some members of the Court that something in the Constitution has compelled them regretfully to thwart the will of the people.

In the face of such dissenting opinions, it is perfectly clear that, as Chief Justice Hughes has said, "We are under a Constitution, but the Constitution is what the judges say it is."

The Court in addition to the proper use of its judicial functions has improperly set itself up as a third house of the Congress - a super-legislature, as one of the justices has called it - reading into the Constitution words and implications which are not there, and which were never intended to be there.

We have, therefore, reached the point as a nation where we must take action to save the Constitution from the Court and the Court from itself. We must find a way to take an appeal from the Supreme Court to the Constitution itself. We want a Supreme Court which will do justice under the Constitution and not over it. In our courts we want a government of laws and not of men.

I want - as all Americans want - an independent judiciary as proposed by the framers of the Constitution. That means a Supreme Court that will enforce the Constitution as written, that will refuse to amend the Constitution by the arbitrary exercise of judicial power - in other words by judicial say-so. It does not mean a judiciary so independent that it can deny the existence of facts which are universally recognized.

How then could we proceed to perform the mandate given us? It was said in last year's Democratic platform, "If these problems cannot be effectively solved within the Constitution, we shall seek such clarifying amendment as will assure the power to enact those laws, adequately to regulate commerce, protect public health and safety, and safeguard economic security." In other words, we said we would seek an amendment only if every other possible means by legislation were to fail.

When I commenced to review the situation with the problem squarely before me, I came by a process of elimination to the conclusion that, short of amendments, the only method which was clearly constitutional, and would at the same time carry out other much needed reforms, was to infuse new blood into all our Courts. We must have men worthy and equipped to carry out impartial justice. But, at the same time, we must have Judges who will bring to the Courts a present-day sense of the Constitution - Judges who will retain in the Courts the judicial functions of a court, and reject the legislative powers which the courts have today assumed.

In forty-five out of the forty-eight States of the Union, Judges are chosen not for life but for a period of years. In many States Judges must retire at the age of seventy. Congress has provided financial security by offering life pensions at full pay for Federal Judges on all Courts who are willing to retire at seventy. In the case of Supreme Court Justices, that pension is $20,000 a year. But all Federal Judges, once appointed, can, if they choose, hold office for life, no matter how old they may get to be.

What is my proposal? It is simply this: whenever a Judge or Justice of any Federal Court has reached the age of seventy and does not avail himself of the opportunity to retire on a pension, a new member shall be appointed by the President then in office, with the approval, as required by the Constitution, of the Senate of the United States.

That plan has two chief purposes. By bringing into the judicial system a steady and continuing stream of new and younger blood, I hope, first, to make the administration of all Federal justice speedier and, therefore, less costly; secondly, to bring to the decision of social and economic problems younger men who have had personal experience and contact with modern facts and circumstances under which average men have to live and work. This plan will save our national Constitution from hardening of the judicial arteries. The number of Judges to be appointed would depend wholly on the decision of present Judges now over seventy, or those who would subsequently reach the age of seventy.

If, for instance, any one of the six Justices of the Supreme Court now over the age of seventy should retire as provided under the plan, no additional place would be created. Consequently, although there never can be more than fifteen, there may be only fourteen, or thirteen, or twelve. And there may be only nine.

There is nothing novel or radical about this idea. It seeks to maintain the Federal bench in full vigor. It has been discussed and approved by many persons of high authority ever since a similar proposal passed the House of Representatives in 1869.

Why was the age fixed at seventy? Because the laws of many States, the practice of the Civil Service, the regulations of the Army and Navy, and the rules of many of our Universities and of almost every great private business enterprise, commonly fix the retirement age at seventy years or less.

The statute would apply to all the courts in the Federal system. There is general approval so far as the lower Federal courts are concerned. The plan has met opposition only so far as the Supreme Court of the United States itself is concerned. If such a plan is good for the lower courts it certainly ought to be equally good for the highest Court from which there is no appeal.

Those opposing this plan have sought to arouse prejudice and fear by crying that I am seeking to "pack" the Supreme Court and that a baneful precedent will be established.

What do they mean by the words "packing the Court"?

Let me answer this question with a bluntness that will end all honest misunderstanding of my purposes.

If by that phrase "packing the Court" it is charged that I wish to place on the bench spineless puppets who would disregard the law and would decide specific cases as I wished them to be decided, I make this answer: that no President fit for his office would appoint, and no Senate of honorable men fit for their office would confirm, that kind of appointees to the Supreme Court.

But if by that phrase the charge is made that I would appoint and the Senate would confirm Justices worthy to sit beside present members of the Court who understand those modern conditions, that I will appoint Justices who will not undertake to override the judgment of the Congress on legislative policy, that I will appoint Justices who will act as Justices and not as legislators - if the appointment of such Justices can be called "packing the Courts," then I say that I and with me the vast majority of the American people favor doing just that thing- now.

Is it a dangerous precedent for the Congress to change the number of the Justices? The Congress has always had, and will have, that power. The number of justices has been changed several times before, in the Administration of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson - both signers of the Declaration of Independence - Andrew Jackson, Abraham Lincoln and Ulysses S. Grant.

I suggest only the addition of Justices to the bench in accordance with a clearly defined principle relating to a clearly defined age limit. Fundamentally, if in the future, America cannot trust the Congress it elects to refrain from abuse of our Constitutional usages, democracy will have failed far beyond the importance to it of any king of precedent concerning the Judiciary.

We think it so much in the public interest to maintain a vigorous judiciary that we encourage the retirement of elderly Judges by offering them a life pension at full salary. Why then should we leave the fulfillment of this public policy to chance or make independent on upon the desire or prejudice of any individual Justice?

It is the clear intention of our public policy to provide for a constant flow of new and younger blood into the Judiciary. Normally every President appoints a large number of District and Circuit Court Judges and a few members of the Supreme Court. Until my first term practically every President of the United States has appointed at least one member of the Supreme Court. President Taft appointed five members and named a Chief Justice; President Wilson, three; President Harding, four, including a Chief Justice; President Coolidge, one; President Hoover, three, including a Chief Justice.

Such a succession of appointments should have provided a Court well-balanced as to age. But chance and the disinclination of individuals to leave the Supreme bench have now given us a Court in which five Justices will be over seventy-five years of age before next June and one over seventy. Thus a sound public policy has been defeated.

I now propose that we establish by law an assurance against any such ill-balanced Court in the future. I propose that hereafter, when a Judge reaches the age of seventy, a new and younger Judge shall be added to the Court automatically. In this way I propose to enforce a sound public policy by law instead of leaving the composition of our Federal Courts, including the highest, to be determined by chance or the personal indecision of individuals.

If such a law as I propose is regarded as establishing a new precedent, is it not a most desirable precedent?

Like all lawyers, like all Americans, I regret the necessity of this controversy. But the welfare of the United States, and indeed of the Constitution itself, is what we all must think about first. Our difficulty with the Court today rises not from the Court as an institution but from human beings within it. But we cannot yield our constitutional destiny to the personal judgement of a few men who, being fearful of the future, would deny us the necessary means of dealing with the present.

This plan of mine is no attack on the Court; it seeks to restore the Court to its rightful and historic place in our Constitutional Government and to have it resume its high task of building anew on the Constitution "a system of living law." The Court itself can best undo what the Court has done.

I have thus explained to you the reasons that lie behind our efforts to secure results by legislation within the Constitution. I hope that thereby the difficult process of constitutional amendment may be rendered unnecessary. But let us examine the process.

There are many types of amendment proposed. Each one is radically different from the other. There is no substantial groups within the Congress or outside it who are agreed on any single amendment.

It would take months or years to get substantial agreement upon the type and language of the amendment. It would take months and years thereafter to get a two-thirds majority in favor of that amendment in both Houses of the Congress.

Then would come the long course of ratification by three-fourths of all the States. No amendment which any powerful economic interests or the leaders of any powerful political party have had reason to oppose has ever been ratified within anything like a reasonable time. And thirteen states which contain only five percent of the voting population can block ratification even though the thirty-five States with ninety-five percent of the population are in favor of it.

A very large percentage of newspaper publishers, Chambers of Commerce, Bar Association, Manufacturers' Associations, who are trying to give the impression that they really do want a constitutional amendment would be the first to exclaim as soon as an amendment was proposed, "Oh! I was for an amendment all right, but this amendment you proposed is not the kind of amendment that I was thinking about. I am therefore, going to spend my time, my efforts and my money to block the amendment, although I would be awfully glad to help get some other kind of amendment ratified."

Two groups oppose my plan on the ground that they favor a constitutional amendment. The first includes those who fundamentally object to social and economic legislation along modern lines. This is the same group who during the campaign last Fall tried to block the mandate of the people.

Now they are making a last stand. And the strategy of that last stand is to suggest the time-consuming process of amendment in order to kill off by delay the legislation demanded by the mandate.

To them I say:I do not think you will be able long to fool the American people as to your purposes.

The other groups is composed of those who honestly believe the amendment process is the best and who would be willing to support a reasonable amendment if they could agree on one.

To them I say: we cannot rely on an amendment as the immediate or only answer to our present difficulties. When the time comes for action, you will find that many of those who pretend to support you will sabotage any constructive amendment which is proposed. Look at these strange bed-fellows of yours. When before have you found them really at your side in your fights for progress?

And remember one thing more. Even if an amendment were passed, and even if in the years to come it were to be ratified, its meaning would depend upon the kind of Justices who would be sitting on the Supreme Court Bench. An amendment, like the rest of the Constitution, is what the Justices say it is rather than what its framers or you might hope it is.

This proposal of mine will not infringe in the slightest upon the civil or religious liberties so dear to every American.

My record as Governor and President proves my devotion to those liberties. You who know me can have no fear that i would tolerate the destruction by any branch of government of any part of our heritage of freedom.

The present attempt by those opposed to progress to play upon the fears of danger to personal liberty brings again to mind that crude and cruel strategy tried by the same opposition to frighten the workers of America in a pay-envelope propaganda against the Social Security Law. The workers were not fooled by that propaganda then. The people of America will not be fooled by such propaganda now.

I am in favor of action through legislation:

First, because I believe that it can be passed at this session of the Congress.

Second, because it will provide a reinvigorated, liberal-minded Judiciary necessary to furnish quicker and cheaper justice from bottom to top.

Third, because it will provide a series of Federal Courts willing to enforce the Constitution as written, and unwilling to assert legislative powers by writing into it their own political and economic policies.

During the past half century the balance of power between the three great branches of the Federal Government, has been tipped out of balance by the Courts in direct contradiction of the high purposes of the framers of the Constitution. It is my purpose to restore that balance. You who know me will accept my solemn assurance that in a world in which democracy is under attack, I seek to make American democracy succeed. You and I will do our part."

-Franklin Delano Roosevelt

It appears we have been here before.


170 posted on 07/09/2005 6:44:27 PM PDT by Ruadh (Liberty is not a means to a political end. It is itself the highest political end. — LORD ACTON)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 164 | View Replies]

To: liberallarry
No, I do not think at all that stare decisis gives consistancy and stability to the law. In fact I'd assert that it does the exact opposite. Minor meanders in case law grow by tag-on decision after tag on decision into powerful flows of intellect at opposition to the orginal intent of the law. Like some wacky game of whisper down-the-lane.

Stare decisis -- it is now famously clear in that recent Kelo decision -- becomes the LAW and purges out the original law. In fact -- for stare decisis to have its full head, it must totaly unanchor from and thus make moot the original law and statute. Case law becomes imperially sovereign.

171 posted on 07/09/2005 6:45:13 PM PDT by bvw
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: ReignOfError
"If you're convicted of a capital crime, the state can take your life. Hence that right is not absolute."

The right is absolute, whether it's violated by any entity, or is forfit, because of one's own egregeous rights violation. The definition of absolute rights does not mean they can not be violated, they can be. Absolute rights are inherent and require justification to violate, else they are inviolate.

172 posted on 07/09/2005 6:51:06 PM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 165 | View Replies]

To: spunkets

The 14th amendment, and it's beating the states to death, was the worst possible thing that could have happened. There was a reason why the Bill of Rights only applied to the federal government. The founders wanted to limit the beast while keeping the States on an even balance of power. The founders knew what a runaway centralized federal government could do and they did not want to make that mistake.

Try reading the 10th Amendment and see what powers are granted to the people and to the states....a whole lot more than the founders gave the federal government.


173 posted on 07/09/2005 6:56:46 PM PDT by MissouriConservative (Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: spunkets

"State legislatures are irrelevant"

Where did you learn your history? Try, again, reading the 10th Amendment and then tell me how "irrelevant" the states are. The founders knew that the state governments were closer to the people, more accountable and, hence, given more power than the federal beast.

History is lost.


174 posted on 07/09/2005 6:59:28 PM PDT by MissouriConservative (Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 80 | View Replies]

To: liberallarry
" Well then I guess our greatest lawyers are both."

There are certainly some statutes that are unclear. However...

How many lawyers have a problem with, "shall not be infringed"? Obviously, lawyers have motivation for advocating infringement of all sorts and litigation of all sorts.

Here's a clue:

It was so cold up here last winter, I actually saw a lawyer with his hands in his own pockets.

175 posted on 07/09/2005 7:00:48 PM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 158 | View Replies]

To: MissouriConservative
" Try"

Yes try. Try reading again and tell me how any State legislature can overrule the SCOTUS.

176 posted on 07/09/2005 7:02:57 PM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 174 | View Replies]

To: Ruadh

Next time .. please post a link!


177 posted on 07/09/2005 7:11:23 PM PDT by CyberAnt (President Bush: "America is the greatest nation on the face of the earth")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 170 | View Replies]

To: MissouriConservative
"The 14th amendment, and it's beating the states to death, was the worst possible thing that could have happened."

I don't think so, not in the least bit. The creation of the 14th, although lacking the verbal strength of the 1st and 2nd, was one of Congress's greatest acts. It extended protection of federally recognized rights to all it's citizens, regardless of what State they were in. In case you forgot, it was enacted, because certain States were trampling on the rights of some of it's citizens. You may not care that local jackboots railroaded folks to long prison terms, because they couldn't afford legal representation, but I certainly care.

"The founders wanted to limit the beast"

What you're missing is that their are many beast that need restraint. The 10th applies to the fed beast, the 14th applies to all the lower beasts. Anything that restrains beasts is always good.

178 posted on 07/09/2005 7:13:33 PM PDT by spunkets
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 173 | View Replies]

To: spunkets
That's quite the tortuous explanation. Here are the two clauses in question in their entirety:

Clause 1: The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;--to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;--to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;--to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;--to Controversies between two or more States;--between a State and Citizens of another State; (See Note 10)--between Citizens of different States, --between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.

Clause 2: In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.

Okay, in Clause 1 judicial power for all Constitutional cases of law and equity is granted to the Supreme Court. In Clause 2 the Court is given original jurisdiction in some types of cases. Clause 2 says that in all other types of cases the Supreme Court has appellate jurisdiction unless Congress makes exceptions. In other words, Congress cannot limit jurisdiction for those types of cases singled out in Clause 2, but for all other types of cases listed in Clause 1 it can.

In the past year some in Congress have talked about applying their authority to limit the federal courts by passing a statute that would prohibit the courts from determining whether or not it is Constitutional to keep the phrase, "under God," in the Pledge of Allegiance. What's keeping Congress from using this authority is their wobbliness (this applies to most 'Icans) or their religion (their faith-based belief--one can't find it in the Constitution--that the Supreme Court is the final authority; this applies to most 'Rats).

So why do you choose to worship at the alter of the Supreme Court along with most 'Rats?

179 posted on 07/09/2005 7:22:46 PM PDT by PeoplesRepublicOfWashington (Washington State--Land of Court-approved Voting Fraud.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 167 | View Replies]

To: Borges
Congress does not have the power to limit the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court only the lower courts.

Hmmm? In that case would you please be kind enough to explain the meaning of the section highlighted below?

ArticleIII

Section. 2.

Clause 1: The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;--to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;--to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;--to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;--to Controversies between two or more States;--between a State and Citizens of another State; between Citizens of different States, --between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.

Clause 2: In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.

180 posted on 07/09/2005 7:27:42 PM PDT by Bigun (IRS sucks @getridof it.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 112 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 141-160161-180181-200 ... 301-309 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson