Posted on 06/27/2005 1:42:52 PM PDT by Coleus
| Parents miss Mass, kids get ax |
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The Rev. Michael Cichon, pastor of St. Joseph/St. Thomas in Pleasant Plains, used each family's bar-coded donation envelope to track attendance. He's tossed about 300 kids from classes and told them not to reapply until next April. Without the classes, children cannot receive the sacraments, meaning some youngsters who thought they'd be making their First Communion next year will have to wait. The suspensions, legal under church doctrine, were a shock to many parents with kids enrolled in the 1,400-child program, which caters to kids who don't attend Catholic schools. "It's hurtful," said Joseph LoPizzo, 38, whose 6-year-old son was booted. "I've been a parishioner at that church for 23 years - longer than he's been the reverend." LoPizzo said he paid the $150 for his son's Thursday afternoon classes last year, but his father-in-law's illness hampered the family's church attendance. "I've just never heard of a church kicking you out," complained Lisa Nicol, 36, who got a letter saying her 7-year-old twin daughters had been barred from classes. "They should be more welcoming and sensitive." The pastor said he suspended kids from the 2005-2006 after-school program because Mass is an "essential" component of the Catholic faith. The affected families were attending church less than once a month, he said. Cichon insisted that the move has nothing to do with the lack of a donation. "There are many families who put absolutely nothing inside the envelopes they submit," he said. |
I disagree with your conclusions. For instance, people renew their wedding vows without proclaiming their marriages "not real". People reaffirm for their own reasons and it would be presumptous to say what their motives are IMO.
"If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" Romans 10:9. Obviously I was not able to confess or believe when I was an infant, therefore I do not believe that particular baptism saved me. Once I was old enough, when I believed and confessed, then I was saved. It was after being saved that I followed my Lord in baptism. But even that baptism did not save me, it was just an outward sign of what had taken place inside me!
"For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" Romans 10:10
Thanks! I can't believe I had never noticed the directions in the "to:" box.
Any "innocent" parties could easily plead there case. This is truly a red herring, though I am amused to see how many FReepers are paranoid about envelopes.
Having said that,,,I'll answer with some questions to illustrate a point,,,Do you think the Pastor's approach is the only one?
No, of course not. The usual approach is to pretend there is no problem. I've got to give this pastor points for trying to stop the breeding a new generation of CINOS.
Can you think of any other approaches?
Isn't that what I asked you? I think he should have issued warning, if he did not. This story doesn't really give us that information.
If he had given no warning, I would, if I were he, give all those affected a "second chance" but let it be known he reserved the right (as is his as pastor) to deny the First Communion to those who are not serious.
Do you think all priests with this problem agree with his actions?
Far too many of our priest are lukewarm. A better question for you is whether you believe we should not challenge people and have a large congregation that stands for nothing, or should we have perhaps smaller gatherings of committed faithful Catholics?
In the past, Priests have talked to parents directly, it is only one suggestion that they do so again. Or send them a personal letter. Or even a form letter would be better IMO. Or address it in Mass. Or in the bulletin. Or perhaps a warning that something like this could be a possible solution. Just a few suggestions. I bet you could think of more.
Again, we don't know if any of this was done. So I withhold judgment. Like I said, now that I had everyone's attention, I would "forgive" the repentent. The obstinate, I would recommend visit the Episcopalians.
The result is predictable and actually part of his plan to "punish/persuade" the parents to be better Catholics.
And this is wrong because?
The Church didn't use to proclaim excommunications because it felt good or we liked punishing people. It was a call to return to holiness. This isno difference.
Worse case, a few parents will grudginly go to Mass for a year so little Suzy can have her big day. Maybe they'll learn something.
SD
Okay, so usign the same reasoning concerning your grasp of the English language:
"Therefore Michol the daughter of Saul had no child till the day of her death." (2 Samuel 6.23)
So Michol had children after she was born? That is the same reading you are putting on St. Matthew 1.25
"And he buried him in the valley of the land of Moab over against Phogor: and no man hath known of his sepulchre until this present day." (Deuteronomy 34.6)
So we now know the burial place of Moses?
"But Philip was found in Azotus: and passing through, he preached the gospel to all the cities, till he came to Caesarea." (Acts 8.40)
So did St. Philip stop preaching once he reached Caesarea?
Maybe your problem is that you don't know the definition of the word until. Until means "up to the time of/that". It doesn't speak to what happens in the future.
Its difficult to believe, based on experience, that many of these children asked to be taken to Mass. The fruit does not fall far from the tree.
To whom much is given, much is expected. If you are not Catholic, you are not held to the same obligation. Someone who is raised in the Church and received the sacraments would have a hard time pleading ignorance to the obligation of weekly mass. Not that it doesn't happen - of course there are many Catholics who don't know the first thing about their own faith. But that doesn't relieve the priest his duty of correcting those who do not understand and pointing out that attendance at weekly Mass is mandatory to be in a state of grace. Once they are informed, they are "on the hook", so to speak. God is merciful. Part of mercy is to teach Truth, even when it's a demanding Truth. Jesus said, "take up your crosses". He didn't avoid the subject so people could go on in unimpeachable ignorance.
Now tell me how you know they weren't going to mass?
Read the article.
His Pastor would not know that. If he wanted to know, he could ask.
If you are pastor of a church, you know who's at mass and who is not. Especially regarding young families. They stick out like sore thumbs.
Perhaps you are unfamilar with the Baptists and other fundamentalists?
They do not view their Baptism as "Re-affirming" their infant Baptism. They think it completely unScriptural for infants to be baptised. It is the adult exercise that is real.
SD
No, and I already posted that.
Who's passing judgment again?
I'm voicing my opinion, YOU call it judgement, YOU do that alot.
On the other hand, you claim to know what I worry about and what I think. Without asking I might add.
If they're not attending mass, and the expectation of Catholic children is to attend mass, then they are hypocrites for not doing what the - by definition of being Catholic - are to expect of their children.
Yawn. I already have raised the possibilty that people often go to mass at other churches. I myself go to Mass sometimes, but the Pastor at my church doesn't assume I am not keeping the sabbath holy.
It would be sacrilege to assume that God will have abandoned these children because they are not enrolled in First (and maybe Only) Holy Communion.
Who on earth ever said that? Scheesh. Amazing stuff.
Check post 449
Sorry, I was answering to post 460!
Thanks!
Is Paul saying that after Christ appears Timothy should stop following after righteousness, love, patience, meekness, and no longer lay hold on eternal life?
1 John 2:9 -
He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
Is John saying that after he wrote this letter, people who hate their brother are no longer in darkness?
Philippians 1:3-5 - I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now
Is Paul saying that he used to thank God for the Philippians' fellowship in the Gospel, but now he won't anymore?
1 Chronicles 12:22 -For at that time day by day there came to David to help him, until it was a great host, like the host of God.
Did David's army stop helping him the day after they became a great host?
I could go on and on . . .
You are equating "judgement" which is a matter of discerning culpability and assigning punishment, with "guilt", which is the state of being knowingly culpable of a delict.
A young child who steals is not "guilty". But you can and should still "judge" the situation and come to a reasonable solution to teach a lesson and effect restitution. The very act of saying "the child is to young to know what they are doing" is one of judgement, because some children are culpable and must be strictly punished, while others are not culpable, and may be let off with a warning.
Remember, Christ did not say "Do not judge", but "Do not judge unless you wish to be held to the same standard with which you are judging."
This is all very basic Catholic doctrine, and I am surprised that a self-ascribed CCD instructor chooses to contradict it. It is one thing for priests to uphold standards of conduct for membership in a religious organization, and another thing entirely for a layperson to weild the judgment of souls which belongs to God alone.
If the Pastor delegates to me the teaching of souls, he is also delegating a share in his judgement, whereby I am responsible to report on things to him, suggest solutions, and see to their resolution as far as it is within my powers.
You are confusing the enforcemet of morality and the judging of moral acts with the judgement of our eternal fate by God.
It's been my experience that as younger kids, curious about the Mass and filled with love for Jesus and enthusiasm, they ask to be taken. At least that's what they say in class, and it's clear that many are quite sincere. They are excited when we attend Mass as a group and have many questions. They are excited to go and humble and sincere in prayer. But it's easy to see, what a mere 3 yrs does, seeing the 5th graders, that they are much less excited. Now, differences in age group aside, it's easy to see how a lax attitude at home does rub off on the children. Yet it's clear that some do retain that love and still look forward to going, regardless of the parents habits. Years of parents just refusing to take them clearly impresses upon them a number of things, the importance of Mass and the sacraments, the value of faith and the enthusiastic requests of the kids and which Sunday activities are valued. It's always very disheartening every year to see 2nd graders who want to go relate disappointedly how they 'didn't get to go' to Mass for Christmas or Easter, let alone 'regular' Sundays.
And Catholics renew their baptismal vows every year at the Easter Vigil.
However, the married couple is not saying that they believe they were never married before - they are saying that they have indeed been married and that they are publicly testifying to this fact.
Likewise with the renewal of baptismal vows.
But actually being baptized again is saying that the first one didn't take.
Ok, so you criticize most priests. I only criticize the approach of this one. Oh well.
A better question for you is whether you believe we should not challenge people and have a large congregation that stands for nothing, or should we have perhaps smaller gatherings of committed faithful Catholics?
Standing for real Christianity is important. All the rest is extra. It's important if it is helpful to the first point.
In my church, children are not confirmed without parental involvement. (Or that of a sponsor if no parent is willing or available) But none are turned away from instruction and learning the gospel. Maybe the priest could consider that type of approach. Just a suggestion from an outsider.
Then keep your opinions on our sacraments to yourself. If you're going to lead people astray as to the meaning and application of the Roman Catholic faith, I'll keep you busy with this all day if you want.
I'm voicing my opinion, YOU call it judgement, YOU do that alot.
Po-tay-to, po-tah-to
On the other hand, you claim to know what I worry about and what I think. Without asking I might add.
No, you've done a good enough job of exhibiting your thought processes without me asking.
Yawn. I already have raised the possibilty that people often go to mass at other churches. I myself go to Mass sometimes, but the Pastor at my church doesn't assume I am not keeping the sabbath holy.
If your pastor knew you were studying to enter the deaconate (or something similar) and saw your car parked at a strip bar every night, would he logically conclude that perhaps you won't take your ministry very seriously?
I don't see any of the parents in the article claiming they were at other churches when they weren't at this parish. One can debate whether using the envelope-method is appropriate, but according to the pastor, there's no obligation to actually donate any money, just submit the envelope as proof there was attendance at mass.
Around $1.35 million budget, and around $1 million goes to the school.
Do you send your kids to the parish school?
They are all 4 or under.
I did, it's not in there. All it says is he didn't get their envelopes or they didn't go to Mass at THAT church.
If you are not Catholic, you are not held to the same obligation.
Of course that is incorrect. Christians are called to keep the sabbath holy and be in fellowship with other Christians.
Maybe not, but all the same ...
Malachi 2.15 But did He not make them one, Having a remnant of the Spirit? And why one? He seeks godly offspring. Therefore take heed to your spirit, And let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth. 16"For the LORD God of Israel says That He hates divorce, For it covers one's garment with violence," Says the LORD of hosts. "Therefore take heed to your spirit, That you do not deal treacherously."
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