Natalee Holloway - Case Discussion Extended Thread 3

UNLESS Joran did leave her on the beach AND someone ELSE came along and grabbed her, then why all the lies?

I am praying so hard that Natalee is found -and- that these three kids are not charged wrongly if they are innocent. I have posted the possibility of what you suggested before. I keep getting the feeling that this whole thing might have started out like the song from the Everly Brothers "Wake up my little Susie." :

Either way, when he got home he told Daddy who was first angry because Joran sneaked out; and then...perhaps...went to get Nat at the beach. But she was gone. They might have all thought she just woke up and went back to the hotel. As so many other kids do at these resort places (we have all seen them do this, waking and staggering back in the morning).

Perhaps it was not until the reports about her disappearance that they thought "Oh, geeze, Joran was the last to see her. No one will believe he fell asleep and then woke and she was gone. Or, no one will believe he left her and we went to find her, but she was gone. So we need to have some story..." And that is how it all began. A web of lies, to cover up something that should just have been reported immediately, but seemed unimportant at the time.

Remember, we all are upset that the father would not let Joran talk. However, Joran said "Dad I want to help them find Natalee..." but the father insisted that he not talk. If she were dead, and Joran knew it...or if he knew she was taken by someone (arranged by Dad?) why would he want to help????

I still feel that these two teens (Nat and Joran) did what two teens often do. Natalee introduced herself, was a bit drunk, took her first taste of "walking on the wild side." Joran sneaked out of the house to meet her, had his fling, and was not going to think more about it. But neither knew how their actions would end up so tragically.

Three families are suffering and now destroyed from what might have started out very typically just an unwise choice by teenagers: Natalee's, (her mother appearing to be near the edge now) Joran's,(his mother looks like she is beyond being just distraught) and the Kalpoe brothers' family (the boys' mom also traumatized).

Whether Dad VDS did something more, once he knew, and went to find her on the beach is another issue. Maybe he did find her, woke her up and was trying to revive her or something and she freaked out. Who was this guy? She might have got hysterical and Dad VDS tried to subdue her and something bad happened then. Who knows?

However, I believe that originally Natalee did seek out Joran and introduce herself (as her friends attested to on TV), met him later at C and C's, and did go willingly in the car (otherwise she would have put up quite a fuss and her friends would have seen/heard). Initially they were just teens being a bit careless and foolish, disobeying their parents - but there was no harm intended and no crime committed by Joran or the brothers.

What happened after Joran and Natalee had time together might not be the fault of Joran and the brothers at all. That might be why they can't give any other information, the truth is that is all they know. They are not hardened criminals who know how to stand up to interrogation. They would have cracked by now if they had actually done something wrong. They made up the first story because they were afraid of being implicated, and that lie caused more suspician. They probably figured they would never be believed if Natalee's body had turned up somewhere and Joran was with her last on the beach. That is why the brothers were covering for Joran initially.

It is possible that Dad might have arranged something, for what reason is unknown, and just what is yet to be discovered. I just think there was no action or plan to harm/kindap/murder Natalee by the boys. JMHO

I know I had strong feelings otherwise in the beginning, but these kids all have many positive attributes and have never been in real trouble. Natalee and Joran are equally privileged. Nat from one of the wealthiest areas in the US, Joran the son of an island official. Both good students, preparing to go off to college with excellent records. I think this started out because of a few wrong choices being made and ended as a terrible tragedy.

My prayers are for Natalee and that justice is done, and the really guilty person/s are found...whoever that might be.

681 posted on 06/24/2005 7:37:48 AM PDT by CitizenM ("An excuse is worse than an lie, because an excuse is a lie hidden." Pope John Paul, II)

I'd have to check the interview again, but didn't she say they had to continually warn Joran to quit talking about Natalee to others?

I heard that. I think AvdS said that Paul had to call J on his cell phone at school to tell him to button it up. Anita must have heard about what her son was saying when she was at school working.

682 posted on 06/24/2005 7:38:56 AM PDT by texasbluebell

..My prayers are for Natalee and that justice is done ..

You speak for us all.

683 posted on 06/24/2005 7:44:48 AM PDT by MrNatural ("...You want the truth!?...")

I watching Greta again. I have TIVO so I can replay it at any point. There is a cut right in the middle of where Anita is talking about Joran telling her he would have not snuck out if she would have beenn there, then Anita starts say but my husband and BOOM there is a jump in the video a clear cut in it.

I wonder if she said sommething about PVDS that made the police bring him in and Great had it cut out of the video at request of the police. You can tell it just a small blurp cut out...

Great catch, brigette! I'm also wondering if Beth and family got to watch the 'uncut' version of mamma & daddy sloot's interview.

684 posted on 06/24/2005 7:46:33 AM PDT by demkicker (A skunk sat on a stump; the stump thunk the skunk stunk; the skunk thunk the stump stunk.)

To: texasbluebell

I heard that. I think AvdS said that Paul had to call J on his cell phone at school to tell him to button it up. Anita must have heard about what her son was saying when she was at school working.

Don't you think it's odd that none of Joran's classmates have talked publicly? If Joran is indeed a womanizing bully with an anger management problem & has bragged about slipping drugs to girls for sex, I'd think it would be awfully tempting for kids who know about him to start 'spilling some beans', especially now that daddy sloot is in jail! I hope the news hounds follow this trail....

OTOH, he really could be the sweet angelic boy his mother keeps describing (not), or somewhere in between.

685 posted on 06/24/2005 7:54:26 AM PDT by demkicker (A skunk sat on a stump; the stump thunk the skunk stunk; the skunk thunk the stump stunk.)

It's possible, if there was a ransom and it was indeed paid, that Natalee has not been returned to the Holloways. Hence the call for Texas Equus and a change in Beth's positive attitude.

Seems like a logical assumption to me...

686 posted on 06/24/2005 7:55:30 AM PDT by demkicker (A skunk sat on a stump; the stump thunk the skunk stunk; the skunk thunk the stump stunk.)

To: PeoplesRepublicOfWashington

Off the subject, but a comment about your plans for Gettysburg. I used to live up there. It is about 1-1/2 hrs from DC so plan on that drive, but a very pleasant one. I forget how you get over to Rt. 15, but you want to go up past Frederick, Maryland. You will pass through the Catocin (sp?) mountains/Thurmont MD, near where Camp David is located. Beautiful area. If your kids like to be in some natural areas, there is a great park and lake in Thurmont (Cunningham Falls State park). It is just a little off the main road, but close enough for a good spot to stop, picnic, and enjoy the mountain scenery.

Another good thing to do is to see the movie "Gettysburg" first. It will bring it really "alive" when you walk the battlefield. Lots of good little shops, places to eat, etc. Be prepared for narrow streets and traffic, however. It is a tiny town, but very alive with the history and feeling of Civil War times. Enjoy your trip!

687 posted on 06/24/2005 7:57:37 AM PDT by CitizenM ("An excuse is worse than an lie, because an excuse is a lie hidden." Pope John Paul, II)

To: maggiefluffs

THat never occurred to me,,that Dad could have been one of the two the witness saw. Creeps

688 posted on 06/24/2005 7:58:33 AM PDT by cajungirl (no)

To: demkicker; All

You guys might want to visit bwcitypaper.com/. Scroll down to Publishers Notebook Naked Birmingham.

689 posted on 06/24/2005 8:01:50 AM PDT by kcat

Just perhaps: They both fell asleep on the beach. Joran woke up; Nat was gone. He figured she went to the hotel and he went home. Or she passed out, he could not wake her and he just left her there. I remember in college kids would pass out and be left...it was typical, and frightening to me, but common.

There are too many flaws in your scenario.
Firstly, why the need for Joran and the brothers to make up a lie? If he simply left her on the beach or she was taken when he was asleep, then there would be no need for the lie.
Secondly, Joran went to see her late at night. Obviously, he had a plan worked out. Otherwise, if he was seriously interested in her he would have been at C&C's earlier in the evening.
Thirdly, Joran is not some innocent little boy. He drinks heavily prior to the legal age, drives illegally, gambles illegally, and is a brawler. He threw one kid threw a plate glass window a week earlier, and he tried to pick a fight with another kid at C&C's the same night Natalee vanished. He is also a known womanizer, which is somewhat understandable for a young man, but still it gives you an indication the kid was out of control. I need to add Natalee's mom reported he had an arrogant attitude towards her. That's not the compassion one would expect from a kid in these circumstances.

690 posted on 06/24/2005 8:01:57 AM PDT by GarySpFc (Sneakypete, De Oppresso Liber)

His classmates must have been warned not to talk by their parents. That's all I can think.

Even N's classmates have been very silent, except for the handful that have finally started to speak up.

Maybe Greta can track down some of J's pals at school and dig in a little. Somebody's got to talk if she goes after them.

691 posted on 06/24/2005 8:04:18 AM PDT by texasbluebell

To: cajungirl; maggiefluffs

THat never occurred to me,,that Dad could have been one of the two the witness saw. Creeps

It never occurred to me either, cg, but now it's making a lot of sense.

692 posted on 06/24/2005 8:06:14 AM PDT by texasbluebell

Thanks, that was a very insightful read. I'm sure the Holloway's & Twitty's will have an earful for everyone about their experience when this is finally over and they're on U.S. soil.

693 posted on 06/24/2005 8:18:26 AM PDT by demkicker (A skunk sat on a stump; the stump thunk the skunk stunk; the skunk thunk the stump stunk.)

To: texasbluebell; Palladin; TexKat; Howlin

Maybe Greta can track down some of J's pals at school and dig in a little. Somebody's got to talk if she goes after them.

That's what I'm thinking too. Do you remember hearing about Joran having to take anger management classes? Palladin mentioned it in his post #425 and I'm wondering if it is a fact or a rumor.

694 posted on 06/24/2005 8:23:33 AM PDT by demkicker (A skunk sat on a stump; the stump thunk the skunk stunk; the skunk thunk the stump stunk.)

To: texasbluebell

I've always heard that it's frequently the types that appear quiet & meek that are the ones to watch out for (especially when their wives are out of town).

695 posted on 06/24/2005 8:28:14 AM PDT by demkicker (A skunk sat on a stump; the stump thunk the skunk stunk; the skunk thunk the stump stunk.)

To: texasbluebell

Maybe Greta can track down some of J's pals at school and dig in a little. Somebody's got to talk if she goes after them.

"Freddy" from most of JvdS's website photos would be the first guy they should talk to... looks like that guy is his drinking buddy.

696 posted on 06/24/2005 8:41:22 AM PDT by Big Jake

To: texasbluebell; cajungirl

Beth believes that it was a kidnapping and possible rape. She's also stated she believes Natalee was at the vdS home at 3:00 am.

If her theory is correct, work it backwards. How did an impaired Natalee get into the house at 3:00 am without the father's knowledge? Doesn't seem feasible, certainly some noise would have at least roused the dogs. Secondly, why was she there?

IMHO, The Kalpoe brothers could now be telling the truth, that they did indeed drop JvdS near the Marriott. End of story for them, except they conspired in the lighthouse story and may have knowledge/involvement with the date rape drug.

Perhaps the witness did see two men struggling with a woman on the beach.

Perhaps the fishing hut was broken into, robbed of anchors and ropes.

Perhaps Steve does own a boat or have access to the Tattoo water taxi, maybe allowing someone else access.

Just a few thoughts ...

697 posted on 06/24/2005 8:42:32 AM PDT by maggief

She isn't all that pretty. There's just something cute about her. I didn't even know she HAD breasts until last night and that could be with the help of Wonder Bra (!).

698 posted on 06/24/2005 8:43:06 AM PDT by johnb838 (Adios, mofo!)

Joran might be a little screwed up because his name is actually pronounced "urine" by his home dutchie folks. That would have made me a little angry, foreigners laughing at me because my name is "urine".

Anger management might not cure such a thing.

And I am not defending the little twit either.

699 posted on 06/24/2005 8:44:46 AM PDT by billygoatgruff

That is not what I heard her say.

700 posted on 06/24/2005 8:49:18 AM PDT by johnb838 (Adios, mofo!)

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