Posted on 06/15/2005 12:27:19 PM PDT by veronica
(1st Add: Includes comments from George Felos, Michael Schiavo's attorney.)
(CNSNews.com) - Terri Schiavo's body did not show any signs of trauma or other criminal activity that would explain her brain injury, nor was there evidence to support previous diagnoses of a heart attack or an eating disorder, the Florida medical examiner who conducted her autopsy said Wednesday. A representative of Terri's family complimented the report, but said it still leaves many questions unanswered.
"She died of dehydration," Dr. Jon Thogmartin, the Florida medical examiner for Pinellas and Pasco counties said, noting that the official cause of death would be listed as "complications of anoxic encephalopathy."
"That's the only diagnosis that I know for sure, is that her brain went without oxygen," he added. "Why? That is undetermined."
George Felos - attorney for Terri's husband, Michael Schiavo - said the report confirms what he has argued all along.
"The courts have found that there was no abuse of Terri, no evidence of abuse, and that's what the medical examiner found," Felos said.
Terri Schiavo collapsed under unknown circumstances in 1990. Michael Schiavo was awarded nearly $2 million in judgments and settlements in a medical malpractice lawsuit claiming that the collapse was caused by a heart attack triggered by a potassium imbalance, caused by an undiagnosed eating disorder, bulimia nervosa. Thogmartin challenged that determination.
"No one observed Mrs. Schiavo taking diet pills, binging and purging or consuming laxatives and she apparently never confessed to her family or friends about having an eating disorder," Thogmartin found. "Furthermore, many other signs of bulimia nervosa were not reported to be present."
Terri was "heavy" as a teenager, according to Thogmartin, and had lost more than 100 pounds after graduation. The eating disorder diagnosis was based on that fact and a low potassium level measured during a blood test about an hour after Terri was first hospitalized.
"Her low potassium level appears to be the main piece of evidence purporting to show that she had an eating disorder," Thogmartin said. But he noted that she received numerous medical treatments when she arrived at the hospital that would have lowered that measurement.
"Thus the main piece of evidence supporting the diagnosis of bulimia nervosa is suspect," he concluded.
"Once you eliminate the potassium problem, which is known in bulimics, you end up with a 26-year-old who used to be healthy, who now lost the weight, is reveling in her thinness now, enjoying her life and doesn't want to gain the weight back," Thogmartin said. "If that's a bulimic, there's a lot of bulimics out there. It's just not enough."
Thogmartin said that because he cannot, "with reasonable medical certainty," ascertain why or how the blood and oxygen to Terri's brain were interrupted, he cannot rule on what started the chain of events that led to her death.
"The manner of death is different from the cause of death. Manner of death is the circumstances of death or how the death came about," Thogmartin said. "Since I don't know the circumstances or can't tell, actually, what the underlying cause is, the manner of death has to be 'undetermined.'"
Other allegations and theories addressed
Thogmartin dismissed the theory that the oxygen depravation to Terri's brain might have been the result of a myocardial infarction, the medical term for a "heart attack," or death of heart muscle from coronary artery disease.
"Mrs. Schiavo's heart was anatomically normal without any areas of recent or remote infarction," he explained.
In response to the allegations that Terri's collapse was the result of a physical assault, Thogmartin noted that she received nearly 30 X-rays, CAT scans and ultrasound examinations during the medical examination that followed her collapse.
"Any fractures - including rib fractures, leg fractures, ankle fractures, skull fractures, spine fractures - that occurred concurrent with her initial collapse would almost certainly have been diagnosed in 1990, especially with the number of physical exams, radiographs and other evaluations she received during her initial hospitalization," Thogmartin said. "No fractures or trauma were reported or recorded."
There was also, Thogmartin said, "no evidence to support or the evidence did not support," various allegations that Terri was abused or neglected after her initial brain injury.
Was Terri in a Persistent Vegetative State?
Thogmartin brought in Dr. Stephen Nelson, an expert in pathology of the brain and central nervous system, as a consultant during the autopsy. Nelson stressed numerous times that the diagnosis of a "Persistent Vegetative State," which was used to justify the removal of the feeding tube that kept Terri alive, "is a clinical diagnosis, it's not a pathologic diagnosis that has precision associated with it." But he did not dispute the finding.
"There is nothing in her autopsy report, in her autopsy that is inconsistent with Persistent Vegetative State," Nelson said, adding that there was evidence to support the finding.
"A normal brain weight for somebody who is approximately 41 years of age ought to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,200 to 1,300 grams," Nelson explained. "Her brain is 615 grams and is largely reduced to what is termed granular atrophy ... associated with the loss of blood flow that happened many years prior.
"Those all are consistent with what is reported in the literature for Persistent Vegetative State," Nelson added. "We found nothing that is contrary to what has previously been reported for Persistent Vegetative State."
Nelson compared the physical condition of Terri's brain to that of Karen Ann Quinlan, the New Jersey woman who died in 1985 -- nine years after her parents won a court battle to remove her from a respirator.
"Her brain, Karen Ann Quinlan's, weighed more than Terri Schiavo's brain weighed," Nelson said. "The findings here are, perhaps, worse, even, than Karen Ann Quinlan."
Thogmartin also concluded that Terri's brain injury was irreversible.
"Her brain was profoundly atrophied," the medical examiner concluded. "This damage was irreversible and no amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons."
Michael Schiavo relied on the diagnosis of a Persistent Vegetative State when he sought permission from the Florida courts to remove Terri's feeding tube. He and two of his relatives testified that Terri had said she would not want to be kept alive in such a condition. Thogmartin discussed the contention by many right-to-life advocates that Terri's family should have been allowed to offer her food and water by mouth after that feeding tube was removed.
"She would not have been able to consume sustenance safely or in sufficient quantity by mouth," Thogmartin said. "Mrs. Schiavo was dependent, therefore, on nutrition and hydration by her feeding tube and removal of her feeding tube would have resulted in her death whether she was fed by mouth or not."
In layman's terms
After a technical explanation of his findings, laden with medical language, Thogmartin was asked to summarize his findings in an exchange with one unidentified reporter:
REPORTER: "In layman's terms, did Terri Schiavo starve to death?"
THOGMARTIN: "No."
REPORTER: "Did she suffer any neglect or abuse?"
THOGMARTIN: "No."
REPORTER: "Will we ever know what caused her death?"
THOGMARTIN: "I don't know."
Pamela Hennessy, spokeswoman for the Terri Schindler Schiavo Foundation and Terri's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, complimented Thogmartin on his report.
"However, it does seem that the conclusions of his report leave as many unanswered questions as there were previously," Hennessy said. "For instance, if Terri did not suffer bulimia and she had as healthy a heart as Dr. Thogmartin proclaimed, what caused her collapse?
"It doesn't really bring much in the way of closure to [the Schindlers] as far as what happened to their daughter, why this happened in the first place and what could have been done for her," Hennessy concluded.
Thogmartin said he is open to answering those questions.
"It is the policy of this office that no case is ever closed, and that all determinations are to be reconsidered upon receipt of credible new information," he explained.
"In addition to fading memories, the 15-year survival of Mrs. Schiavo after her collapse resulted in the creation of a voluminous number of documents, many of which were lost or discarded over those years," he continued. "Receipt of additional credible information that clarifies any outstanding issues may, or shall cause an amendment to her cause and manner of death."
Night! Sleep tight!
As I have always stated, I believe she suffered from "Shaken Adult syndrome"---or perhaps a pillow over her face!
I do enjoy talking with adults, so hopefully the children will be in bed next time. LOL You sleep well now, and I'll see ya 'round. :)
They tried to save her from a 13 day horror of being dehydrated to death you stupid twit.
Twit says, the party's over. Your point of view did not prevail. You lost. Get over it. Soon there will be no more of these threads, as the cause celebre will be gone and Terri is now where she should be, RIP.
You know - I really admire your sympathy for the pain of others - if their name is Michael. We know, we know - Terri was vegetable.
And I admire your sympathy for Michael whom you all accused of murder. What goes around comes around. Time to let go, sweety.
I, and almost every prominent Conservative of note and heart and thought, as well as church leaders across the board--from Roman Cathoic to Judaism to Protestant to Episcopalian, feel that the death sentence that was ordered on a defenseless, innocent, unable to speak for herself, Roman Catholic Terri, comletely based on nothing more than hearsay, remembered not until seven years after the fact and the monies banked by Michael, falls under the "First do no harm" Hippocratic. Terri was killed without the ORDERED (and nose-thumbed,) de novo hearing on the case. Compared to criminals convicted of capital punishment, she was treated like a dog with regards to her rights as an American citizen and consideration and Congress handed-down (ignored) order. Her death was horrible and inhumane and unspeakable in this day and age. She was not dying. There was NOTHING in writing stating her "wishes." In life and death matters, if we do not err on the side of life, absent all but hearsay (in which Michael contradicted himself,) what in the WORLD have we become? First do no harm.
There was a great piece and link posted last week by a FReeper in which all the quotes of the leaders of the different churches addressed the killing of Terri, and offered their thoughts and condemnations (in condemnation,)on the atrocity (including our late Jon Paul the Great and Pope Benedict. I will get it for you tomorrow and post it. It's powerful. And It's across the board.
This issue is an issue of right versus wrong.
Every menber of a decent society is right in believing that it is wrong to starve and dehydrate to death a fellow human being.
Have a good night and I will talk to you tomorrow. Take care.
I'm now REALLY off to bed. My eyes are starting to cross. ;-)
And Jon=John. I wouldn't have taken the time to make the correction had he not been such a giant of a man here on Earth. I miss him and I know that you do too. Nite-Nite.
What is it that makes you hate the disabled to the point that you would support such a hideous thing as what was done to Terri?. It was a 13 day slow murder of a helpless innocent person. Terri's "crime" was that she depended on others for her care.
I suppose you would like all people who depend on others for their care to be exterminated?
Could you please PING me when you post it? Thanks.
What is it that makes you hate the disabled to the point that you would support such a hideous thing as what was done to Terri?.
She wasn't disabled. She was braindead. You just can't accept that concept. C'est la vie. And as for kindness, none of you had any for Michael Schiavo and what he went through. Unless you consider calling him a murderer kindness. And I just love the "Christian" aspect that so many of you hide behind. For a religion that portrays heaven as the place to be, better than life on earth, it amazes me how you didn't want Terri to be allowed to die and go to heaven. Although, in actuality she was dead way back when, and her soul left the shell of her body then.
So, basically, you were just trying to keep alive what was just a zombie, no there there. The good part of Terri had gone to heaven, her soul; you were just propping up an empty shell. So much for heaven being the place to get to sooner than later. Afraid of death, are you?
** Please reread my sentence. I tried to make that same point with my use of "OR"
"Living wills are the way to go, IF a person does not want to be kept alive by feeding tubes or by extraordinary means."
I know, I know...you keep posting the link to the bone scan interpretation, but what about the link to the later testimony by the doctor who did it? You know, where it's refuted and points out that it was wrong.
"You are prevaricating."
More like rumor monger, see:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1423508/reply?c=334
Eagle Mama, why haven't you acted to have this obviously incompetent person removed from his job if he's as bad as you assert? Are you a Dr.?
Let me clue you in... there are many lies and distortions being told on the anti-Schiavo side. I don't know if the Schindlers initiated them or what, but one of them is about these "nurses" and late-breaking depositions.
This was NOT A NURSE who made this claim...this was a NURSE'S ASSISTANT. She doesn't have the medical training necessary to tell the difference between actual swallowing and aspiration. And it's well known that saliva swallowing is common in PVS patients. There's a difference between the oral swallowing and the pharyngeal swallowing reflex...the former is voluntary, and the latter is involuntary. These are required to move a bolus to the esophagus...but saliva can make it down in small amounts okay.
IANAP.
Or a nobody politician writes a letter that you should get the Nobel prize!
You're not being asked to provide the terms of the settlement...you're just being asked to substantiate your claim, which--if real--should easily be substantiated by court filings that are not sealed.
Your hemming and hawing make me believe this is a made-up story. If it's not, provide the details (name, for example) so we can all see you aren't just jumping on the "make up anything for the Schindlers" bandwagon.
She was disabled. She had severe brain damage. She was viscously killed, by being slowly dehydrated to death, in front of her mother and father, who only wanted to take her home and care for her. There were cops in the room to make sure that her mom/dad, who raised her from a baby, couldn't put even one drop of water on her drying cracked lips. They weren't "allowed" to comfort their dying daughter. That's just sick. (though she wasn't "dying" until the hospice stopped giving her food and water).
The Hospice, police department, judges and lawyers who let this happen, and any FReepers who supported it, are a disgrace.( This was done based on the hearsay testimony of her adulterous husband, who didn't remember, until 7 years later and a monetary award for her therapy- (that was not provided) his wifes "wishes"?)
She smiled at seeing her mother and family. She was showing some response all the way to the end- that's not brain dead.. unless you're going to say that the priests and others who visited her all the way to the end were lying about what they saw. She seems to have had some function, even if it wasn't enough to allow her to stay alive, according to you. Only 100% healthy people get to live in your world.
She was never given a chance to live. She was never given the proper tests, not even a swallow test.The tests were not allowed, that might have saved her life, or, might have proved she was "brain dead" as you say. No one wanted to be sure that she was "brain dead" before they murdered her. She wasn't even given the chance to see if she could learn to swallow. Oh, and she was not "allowed" to be seen in public. She was not "allowed " to be photographed or filmed. No reporter was "allowed" to see her. She was kept under very tight control. She's been cremated, no tests or independent results are possible .( No judge should be able to deny a test, when someone's life is at stake.)
Now the Dr. Thugmartin, who refused to have his autopsy overseen by another, comes out with his autopsy "results". I don't buy it.
Once again, just like in everything else connected to this case, something was denied/covered up/refused. That's all Terri's case is- denials, refusals to test, cover ups and sealed records. I don't believe this "report". I have no reason to believe it. It was not independently reviewed. In fact Felos wanted his ex-wife to give the report. She also, along with everyone else in the case ,is either pro euthanasia, or belongs to the kill-the-disabled-save-the-world religion of SScientology.
By the way, I was wondering who else you think should be exterminated. Do you think kids with cancer should be snuffed out? After all, what "quality of life" do they have? They live in almost constant pain. They can't do what healthy children can do. Their treatment is expensive. They will probably die anyway- Shall we kill them? Have you seen the story about the little girl Alex- of Alex's Lemonade Stand? She only lived to be 8. Her parents spent a fortune trying to keep her alive. Maybe they shouldn't have bothered?
How about the mentally retarded. Should they be killed? Burn victims have a lower quality of life- How about the blind, deaf? I'm not kidding either. I want an answer to these questions from you. Have you ever spent any time in the company of a disabled person or persons?
Maybe you need to make an effort to educate yourself about people who live with disabilities, cognitive , or neurological disorders in particular, before you go spouting off about "brain dead" and "zombie".
While your at it go find someone who actually has a feeding tube, so you can learn something about it. Seems to me, that you don't know jack about what you're talking about. Afraid of the disabled are you?
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