Posted on 05/29/2005 1:12:07 PM PDT by Betaille
French voters have rejected the proposed EU constitution in Sunday's referendum, according to an exit poll. The poll quoted by French TV gives the "No" side 55% - in line with surveys published in the run-up to the vote.
(Excerpt) Read more at news.bbc.co.uk ...
I figure it was an obvious result. Probably won't last for too long. But it could trigger a lot of reflection on why the euro is riding high; and the more people think about it then the euro might not do as well.
Oh, of course. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise, in fact, Napoleon had a sort of proto-EU in hand before the first exile.
In any case the "philosophy" of AH was entirely derivative. What was new, what shook the foundations of Europe in the 1930s, was the emotion, the fusion of the romantic with the modern and scientific.
I lived in Europe in the 70s, and the young soi-disant Europeans who constantly repeated "we're not French, we're not Germans, we're Europaischers" were not at all convincing to me. Maybe things have changed.
There was and is, though, a deep spiritual longing to believe.
To believe in what-that's the question. To believe in Man, to believe in community, to believe in the primacy of the (greatly expanded) tribe (which still does not include God's chosen)-Arbeit macht frei.
Beware.
Great post.
The American Civil War was one of the bloodiest in the history of the world up to that point. Sherman's march through the south was devastating--every field of crops, building, village, and city burned to the ground in the wake of his path. We Americans are quite familiar with the suffering and carnage and hell of war.
Ok, I have to admit, it were only 20,000,000 in present day EU countries (if you also count the victims of the Spanish civil war).
Yes, I do see. You want to play a numbers game. You are saying that you Europeans have suffered so much and therefore we Americans just don't understand you.
The only reason you Europeans haven't continued to kill millions over the past 60 years is the presence of American troops in your country. But don't worry, those American troops will be gone sometime over the next 10 years. Let us hope that your great suffering will have given you some sense of maturity not to repeat your past predilections.
Just giving you the reverse argument. For example a research contract is not the same a s a contract for goods. Will Beoing ever pay back the development costs to the Feds? Royalties to the taxpayer?
Could you perhaps take a moment and explain just what the EU is?
Because here's my concept, tell me where I'm wrong.
The EU is kind of like the United States only in Europe.
Though the EU wouldn't govern if I understand correctly. They'd be more a marketing/money/price type of thing. There would be rules that everyone would agree to it, like that.
I thought it sounded like a good thing. A big part of the reason the US is so sucessful is our size and unity without bother of fifty different barriers to commerce.
If I'm making any sense. Another thing, I hear that Turkey didn't agree to help us during the Iraq invastion because they wanted to be admitted to the EU.
Surely if membership is so coveted it must be a good thing?
Chirac's turn to be prosecuted for bribery. French tradition you know!
Another reason why Socialist Europeans don't like the EU is that it reduces some forms of socialism like for example Greece has to sell off its national airliner Olympic and privatize it. This may freak out some Americans that assume the EU is the second incarnation of Communism (they are not too well informed). That is why for the most part the French voted no - they want to maintain their form of Socialism.
Another reason people hate the EU is that while it promotes privatization of industries - it also regulates - some would say over regulates industries so it seems as a contradiction - free market that is overly regulated right down to what cheeses are to be called or if cheeses meet the right standard for export, etc.
What Americans in their ignorance call Euro Socialism is in fact what they see as over regulation and over standardization and regimentation.
Good thing for the politicians, anyway. It also comes across as a good thing for the lesser developed members, because a lot of them get money out of the deal. That's a powerful draw, even if upon maturer reflection it turns out not to be such a good thing for the country.
Drug addiction provides a somewhat similar analogy.
Americans apparently aren't the only ones so "ignorant". Mikhail Gorbachev has (approvingly) referred to the EU as the "new European Soviet".
yeah, like ireland/Nice treaty, though clearly this vote shows that there will be some delay before a constitution is established. Wonder how the offices arleady operating pending approval of it are impacted, presumably not at all.
given the huge boost the media gives democrats in general and the blank check they gave kerry on a horrible record, a republican being elected to national office is amazing.
to a big degree the no vote was likely priced in, so my guess is that the selloff might be buyable (euro).
Going to Spain next week, so I guess I'll see what's up! I'm trying to start an import business - that's okay, I expected it to take a long time and in fact it is doing so. But my long experience with Spain has prepared me for this.
I'm going to Madrid, Murcia and BCN - are you still in BCN? If so, Freepmail me! I'll probably be there around the 3rd week of June.
Best quote I saw regarding the independence motivation:
"I would rather be an American than a European," said Vincent, 63, who owns a vegetable stall in one of Paris' open-air markets. "At least Americans love their country." (Source: Yahoo News: Constitution foes fear for France's soul)
I think many french PEOPLE are nationalists, worried about muslim immigration, etc., and I don't have a problem with this. Their governments politics and strategy of increasing influence out of proportion to their size/power by opposing the US, etc., is another issue entirely.
As far as the entire EU thing,
1) most individuals in the subject areas have not had a chance to vote on any of this, and all their major political parties support it, so what can they really do (kind of like the quandry here in the US with the apparently impossible task of controlling the border).
2) The absolute devastation of the last two european wars (particularly wwii) is still very alive in the european conscience, and anything which appears to promise making anything of the sort more unlikely will tend to be embraced simply because extreme nationalism has in the past led to continental suicide. Even as an educated (in terms of history) and well-travelled american I often find it hard to factor in this when judging local attitudes regarding nationalism in europe. The closest parallel for us in understanding how this can impact a national conscience might be seeing people now in their 80's who literally save every penny, scrap of food, etc., due to their upbringing as children during the great depression.
And you've hit upon the exact motivation for the EU in the minds of its elitist architects. They don't want a united, patriotic nation under them. They want government without national attachment. Once the people get used to the idea of an extranational government, then they'll be more easily led to world government.
Do pharmaceutical companies pay back their R&D to consumers? Do automakers?
Why do you single out Boeing because their customer is the government?
As to paying upfront, this is common in many business practices -- custom clothing, contractors, legal retainers...
"At least Americans love their country."
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