BREAKING: Charges Dropped Against Army Reservist Accused Of Holding Group of Illegals At Gunpoint

KFYI - 550AM - Phoenix, AZ via PHXNews | 21 April 2005 | KFYI Hound

[Spiff]

KFYI is Reporting:

CHARGES HAVE BEEN DROPPED against Army reservist Patrick Haab who was accused of holding a group of illegals at gunpoint.

[DLfromthedesert]

Soft on crime??? You don't know the whole story; I heard this young hero interviewed on Hannity.

IMO, you're soft in the head and in other places, too.

[Czar]

Good point.

[lawdude]

"Ok, what law did he break? He was minding his own business when he was charged by the group of illegals. He drew his weapon to protect himself (as he is entitled to do under the Constitution) and, suspecting that they were illegal aliens, he held them under citizens arrest until the Border Patrol arrived and he turned them over to the Border Patrol.Ok, what law did he break? He was minding his own business when he was charged by the group of illegals. He drew his weapon to protect himself (as he is entitled to do under the Constitution) and, suspecting that they were illegal aliens, he held them under citizens arrest until the Border Patrol arrived and he turned them over to the Border Patrol."

He has given at least three versions of that story. The one you parse is the one that is closest to keeping him legal.

The CA admits that the ONLY thing that helped his cause was that there was a Coyote (illegal guide) with them. He is the felon.

He had NO probable cause. How did he know there was a Coyote with them? How did he know they were illegals? Good guesses DO NOT COUNT. Had just one of them been a citizen, he would be tried and convicted of a host of crimes. They very likely DID NOT charge him., The last thing illegals want is CONFRONTATION!!.

The illegals themselves did NOT commit a felony.

Bottom line, and every attorney I know in Arizona agrees that, HE WAS DAMN LUCKY.

[CheneyChick]

CAPOC hooah bump!

[DLfromthedesert]

So you believe illegals and Sheriff Thug Arpaio over a war hero.... terrific....only reinforces my opinion of lawyers.

[Iron Matron]

BP asked the aliens if they wanted to press charges against the Sgt. They did. Thus, he was facing charges.<<<

That's a problem, IMO. Why is an officer with the UNITED STATES BORDER PATROL asking illegals if they want to press charges????????!!!!!!!!!

That aint right. What was the officers/panderers name?

[Iron Matron]

Ahhh...but they do have rights- it was determined in the late 70's that illegals have the same civil rights while in the US as US citizens have<<<

This law should be revoked/modified. Illegals should not enjoy ALL of the rights that citizens have. Any rights they have should be limited to "you cant torture/murder someone just because they are illegal..beyond that, nothing.

[Iron Matron]

Yeah, their attitude is "possession is 90% of the law". Illegals come here to possess.<<<

One day, I kept seeing a shadow pass by the window in the front courtyard of my home. Finally curious, I went out to see what it was (some birds, I thought, playing in the birdbath or something).

Well, it was two young Mexican women taking scissors to my prized climbing roses! They must have known it was wrong, because when I asked what they were doing , they tried to hide the scissors behind their {wet} backs.

So, my roses got decimated, at the top of the season because these women wanted them for their sisters wedding! The mother was waiting in a car, just out of sight around the corner.

A hispanic acquaintance told me this was a usual practice, they think if something is outside, it is THEIRS for the taking.

If these women would have come to my door, told me how beautiful my roses were, and asked for some, I would have been delighted at the compliment and cut them off (proper cuts, not the ripping they did) for them.

But Mexicans have no class, no sense of personal property, no sense of respect...no sense at all except the criminal one.

[chris1]

Just based on personal anecdotal evidence from Yonkers, NY, the past few years have seen a tsunami of illegals. Its worse than ever. They are all over the streets, corners, and everywhere.

They have truly changed the culture, FOR THE WORSE!!!!!!!!!!

As much as many say about Michael Savage - he is right on about:

Borders, Language, Culture.

[TexasCajun]

Is this the guy Hannity had on his radio program earlier this week? -Good News-

[chris1]

Are you so blind as not to see the 900lb gorilla in front of you with its feet in the air ready to stomp on your head?

Although you may feel good about yourself and these poor wonderful Lewis and Clark like immigrants, they are sucking the country dry.

[DustyMoment]

He had NO probable cause. How did he know there was a Coyote with them? How did he know they were illegals? Good guesses DO NOT COUNT. Had just one of them been a citizen, he would be tried and convicted of a host of crimes. They very likely DID NOT charge him., The last thing illegals want is CONFRONTATION!!.

First, he is not associated with the police, so probable cause doesn't enter into the equation. He was charged (i.e. they ran toward him in a manner that he interpreted as being threatening) by these people, so he had just cause to feel the need to protect himself, which he did.

Secondly, as a combat trained Army reservist he, likely, was trained to look for certain behaviors that made him suspicious. The best cops on the beat use instinct and training to spot suspicious behaviors in lieu of probable cause. In many cases, probable cause develops after interfacing with with the suspect. So, in the real world, good guesses DO count. Suspicious behaviors between enemy combatants and criminals probably share a great deal in common. Sgt. Haab may not be trained in police work, but he has been trained in combat techniques and has been in combat. IMO, that issue is a wash.

W/respect to the issue of the illegals no wanting confrontation, nothing could be further from the truth. The reason he ended up in Sheriff Joe's jail is because the illegals followed through and filed charges against him. While I agree that he was lucky to have had the charges dropped, what I have been given to understand is that they were dropped because the story coming from the illegals was as inconsistent as you claim Sgt. Haab's story was.

If I assume that the information you have provided is correct, it is likely that the case would have been tossed by a judge when it got to court. There is a concept in the law, with which I am sure you are familiar, called Clean Hands. If we assume worst case, neither side had clean hands coming into this issue. To be sure, the ILLEGAL ALIENS who had no business being in this country didn't have clean hands. IMO, it is questionable whether Sgt. Haab had clean hands but, let's assume that he didn't. Both sides, essentially, were "dirty" so, in essence, no foul no crime.

I don't necessarily agree with that assessment. The important thing to me is that the "good guy" won.

[TomasUSMC]

Bottom line, and every attorney I know in Arizona agrees that, HE WAS DAMN LUCKY.

---

I hope you don't know too many attorneys in Arizona otherwise, Arizona is full of traitorous cowardly attorneys who would rather side with Mexicans than Americans.

[Serenissima Venezia]

If he was within his rights to draw the weapon and point it at the attackers in the first instance, then he was certainly within his rights, having witnessed a breach of the peace or a felony, to affect a citizen's arrest.

I'm not a lawyer, but common sense dictates that this is correct.

The 911 call that was recorded with this incident was great. After telling the 911 operator about the situation, the soldier asked the operator if she wanted him to have the 7 that charged him stay in the vehicle or should be 'splay them on the ground'. I believe there was some silence after that - the operator was probably taken aback! What a man!

[El Gato]

Please explain to me how he knew they were criminals. What action had they taken that violated the law? It's not illegal to run in the desert, nor is it illegal to speak Spanish. So what State or Federal violation of the law could he possibly have noticed that would have allowed him to threaten to use deadly force against these guys?

One does not have to *know* that a crime has been committed to make an arrest, only to have reasonable grounds to believe that one has.

Guys, speaking Spanish, running out of the desert and into a waiting vehicle seems to be a pretty decent reason to believe that a crime (illegal entry) or crimes (human smuggling) have been committed, and that these are the ones who committed them. It's the totality of the situation that leads to the probable cause.

[El Gato]

He had NO probable cause. How did he know there was a Coyote with them? How did he know they were illegals? Good guesses DO NOT COUNT. Had just one of them been a citizen, he would be tried and convicted of a host of crimes. They very likely DID NOT charge him., The last thing illegals want is CONFRONTATION!!.

Of course good guesses count. It's called reasonable basis to believe and thus probable cause.

One would be lead to believe that a bunch of guys bursting into a rest stop from the desert at 9 PM in the middle of nowhere, speaking a foreign language and then running to a vehicle that was already parked there, were probably not just taking a midnight walk in the moonlight. The perceived threat to him was further reason to believe they were up to no good. The prepositioned vehicle, with driver, leads to the conclusion that the driver (and possibly one or more of the others) are involved in alien smuggling, a felony.

Would you argue that if a Border Patrol agent or the local sheriff had done precisely the same things that they were skirting the law? The only thing the guy did that a BP agent would not have done, was to call 911 and ask how to proceed. The BP agent would have called for backup while holding the assumed illegals at gunpoint, and the Sgt. calling 911 was pretty close to that. IIRC the dispatcher sent a BP unit out, not a deputy, but I could be wrong about that.

[El Gato]

it strains credulity to suppose that rights come from God but that His attention stops with Americans.

Of course it doesn't, but the protections afforded those rights by the Constitution from US Government action may be somewhat different. Otherwise one is led to absurdities like enemy soldiers being allowed to bear arms on American soil without interference until they actually shoot someone.

[delacoert]

I'm not a lawyer, but common sense dictates that this is correct.

Thanks for voicing common sense, and I too admire Sgt. Haab's actions.

I'm seriously concerned about posts in these threads that carelessly misinterpret the rights/legalities at play in this situation.

1. The 2nd ammendment to the US Constitution does not, in and of itself, give you the right use a weapon. (Use means draw and point not only fire. If you draw and point, you've already made the decision that you're willing to fire.)

2. The laws regarding the right to make a citizens arrest are based on state statute. They are included under criminal code. They are fairly explicit. In general, anyone "who makes a citizens arrest should not use more force than is necessary, should not delay in turning the suspect over to the proper authorities, and should never mete out any punishment." (from Citizen's Arrest)

3. "The right to make a citizen's arrest is a constitutionally protected right under the Ninth Amendment as its impact includes the individual's natural right to self preservation and the defense of the others." (from Citizen's Arrest)

4. "The laws of citizens arrest appear to be predicated upon the effectiveness of the Second Amendment." (from Citizen's Arrest)

5. The citizen's arrest statute for Arizona, where Sgt. Haab acted, resides in Arizona Revised Statutes, Title 13 - Criminal Code, Chapter 38 - MISCELLANEOUS, Article 7 - Arrest, Section 13-3884. The statute says: A private person may make an arrest: 1. When the person to be arrested has in his presence committed a misdemeanor amounting to a breach of the peace, or a felony. 2. When a felony has been in fact committed and he has reasonable ground to believe that the person to be arrested has committed it.

6. Sgt. Haab's initial actions where probably justified under A.R.S. §13-3884 in that the 7 illegals rushed him, constituting a breach or the peace, and presumably giving him the right to draw a weapon to protect him self, make a citzen's arrest, and detain them until they could be be turned over to authorities.

7. Sgt. haab's following actions were clearly justified in that he determined the 7 illegals were coyotes engaged in a felony, i.e., human trafficing.

Sgt. Haab's case was a unique set of events that should not be intrepreted as giving a citizen the right to detain an illegal immigrant. In general, an illegal immigrant is probably only guilty of a misdimeanor, i.e., niether a breach of the peace nor a felony. You cannot draw a gun, make a citizen's arrest, or unlawfully detain them in this general event.

On the other hand, I would chose to believe the word of my countrymen over that of an illegal border crosser if he were to tell me he had witnessed a breach of the peace just like a police officer's testimony is believed over that of a suspect.

All he would have to tell me is something along the lines, "After watching these guys cross the border, I walk up to them and asked them politely who they were and what they were doing. One of them began screaming profanities and threatened to kill me if I tried to stop them. Having witnessed this breach of the peace I detained these individuals until I could turn them over to law enforcement personnel." I would believe the word of my countryman over the word of the illegal immigrant, but that's just me.

I wouldn't count on getting much support from law enforcement though.

[lancer]

To let everyone see how stupid and clueless they are? Just a thought.

Not a bad thought, but do we really need more evidence of that? Why would anyone listen to anything Lanny Davis has to say...?

[lawdude]

" Of course good guesses count. It's called reasonable basis to believe and thus probable cause"

As a criminal defense attorney, licensed in the State of Arizona for a number of years, I can categorically state that you have your head up your ass. Please don't ever try to defend yourself, even for a speeding ticket.