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Iwo Jima - A stupid Mistake?
LA TImes ^ | March 10, 2005 | Max Boot

Posted on 03/10/2005 7:10:45 AM PST by rcocean

Our awe at the bravery of the Marines and their Japanese adversaries should not cause us to overlook the stupidity that forced them into this unnecessary meat grinder. Selective memories of World War II, which record only inspiring deeds and block out all waste and folly, create an impossible standard of perfection against which to judge contemporary conflicts.

(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Japan
KEYWORDS: hateamericafilth; hatingamerica; history; iwojima; latimesbullshit; marinecorps; marines; maxboot; usmc; veterans; wwii
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To: Coop
Quit whining. You started with the insults; expect 'em back.

Having been a Freeper for six years, I'm quite used to the insults. However, I did not insult you or any Freeper, for that matter. I took a shot at Ollie North. And, I am more than happy to support my contention with factual evidence. A liberal would not be entitled to personally insult you if you said that John Kerry was a fool. I think that the same rule applies here.

Iran-Contra is, and will remain, the black stain on the Reagan administration. Liberals still cling to it as an example of the administration's corruption. Sadly, they have a point. We have one man to thank for that, Ollie North.

I will say one thing to Ollie's credit. He showed incredible restraint in hosting that show with Paul Begala. Begala was so mean and obnoxious that I can't believe that Ollie didn't just sock him.

261 posted on 03/11/2005 7:08:59 AM PST by Seydlitz
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To: Seydlitz; kdf1; AMERIKA; Lancey Howard; MudPuppy; SMEDLEYBUTLER; opbuzz; Snow Bunny; gitmogrunt; ...
It's very charming of you to try to justify stupid statements with the fact that you are a college grad, while the rest of us with only Associate Degrees at the most along with actual experience as Marines and several of us combat experience just sit in the background and sit in shamed silence.

Yes, your acumen and wit, your knowledge of several authors who disagree with public opinion of a man who was DRAFTED into the intelligence services and knowingly and admittingly had to be taught how to do it trial by fire using methods which ACTUALLY GOT THE JOB DONE in the international arena while following orders...

Who then while testifying about his experiences correctly surmised his testimony had to be the truth while under a grant of immunity and silenced his critics and caused a deluge of supportive telegrams during and afterwards, whose actions then have raised him to a higher hero status he already earned on the field of battle...

One which YOU will never attain yourself due to your intellectual approach to living and attempted discernment because you have no idea what it is like to do those things he did in the real world....

Since you claim that your Princeton Law and Michigan Law credentials allow you more knowledge on these topics, I would like to see the amicus brief you filed which details the circumstances of this knowledge and just how this law knowledge shows you know more than Ollie, are worth more than Ollie, and actually have a clue what it means to serve your country like Ollie did...

And you can't can you?

Mostly because, while you slept safely in bed at night, people like me, Coop, and Ollie, and TeT68, and ;kdf1; AMERIKA; Lancey Howard; MudPuppy; SMEDLEYBUTLER; opbuzz; snow bunny; gitmogrunt; gunnyg; Scuttlebutt; HEFFERNAN2; 68-69TonkinGulfYatchClub; sere doc; tarawa; dcwusmc; ladyX; cob1; celtic gal; Leatherneck_MT; riley;
Wings-n-Wind; ED NYC; nitro; nammarine; usmcobra; Dave Dilegge; eternity; colorado tanker; the shrew; texas Jarhead; An Old Man; stumpy; SwankyC; MCFujiTanker; Dubya; bmoc; depenzz; SemperFi2; Poohbah; tet68; Robert Lomax; Sonar5; Stars N Stripes; Temple Drak e; alphadog; Naplm; theirjustdue; USMCVet; Little Bill; Dutchy; GussiedUp; fnord; Toidylop; SamAdams76; xkaydet65; exmarine; exmarine1; WhiskeyPapa; BluH2o; RebelDawg; libkill;bimmer; Check_Your_Premises; Howie66; SamKeck; clintonh8r;dd5339; anymouse;JoeSixPack1;Always A Marine;SrpskaFire;oh8eleven;daylate-dollarshort;eldoradude;steplock;Aura Of The Blade; USMC_tangocharlie;xjarhead; CARepubGal; Servant of the Nine; coop; eldoradude; theirjustdue;datadink;az joe;angryspud;An Old Man; dpa5923; viccim;AbsolutePower;squirt;ErnBatavia;erinjohn;AbsolutePower; mfulstone ;SICSEMPERTYRANNUS; scarface367;Truelove; XtreMarine;NormsRevenge;TMSuchman;TomasUSMC;Tennessee_Bob;sandrat;malia;olongapobarfighter;flightline; 2nd Bn, 11th Mar; FesterUSMC;snake65; OldSgt. ;infantryMarine; jarhead1957;AlaskaErik;MarineBrat;Tahoe3002;82Marine89; rabidralph; sergeantdave;TMSuchman;Halgr;Tripoli;GunnyB;HMFIC;Warrior Nurse;semaj; The KG9 Kid; chesty_puller;Tennessee_Bob;roninmarine;Cujo_USMC; marine92140;USMC79to83; usmc_chris;NavyDoc;mental; turbo pig; dick vomer; maddawg99;DJ Taylor;RJS1950;Seniram US;DocH;CLS;




all stood ready at the gate, ready to commit violence on your behalf, ready to die for you...

That's why you haven't got a clue what you just said.

Got it?
262 posted on 03/11/2005 7:57:53 AM PST by RaceBannon ((Prov 28:1 KJV) The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.)
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To: rcocean
Boot has crackpot tendencies and should be taken seriously. Coincident with our victory in Afghanistan, Boot wrote an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal in 2002 arguing that Americans would not take seriously the War on Terror until many more soldiers, sailors and Marines died. As best I can recall, his prescription was to dramatically increase our troop levels in theater -- what might be called the "Lyndon Johnson solution" for Vietnam.
263 posted on 03/11/2005 8:06:45 AM PST by OESY
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To: Al Gator

Salient observations, Al.


264 posted on 03/11/2005 8:11:01 AM PST by F16Fighter
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To: RaceBannon

BUMP


265 posted on 03/11/2005 8:15:15 AM PST by Lancey Howard
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To: Seydlitz; RaceBannon

Seydlitz

Why don't you post on this thread

Hanoi Jane's imminent autobiography

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1360385/posts

PS Make sure you repeat your post on Ollie North while you are there.

Thank You


266 posted on 03/11/2005 8:21:40 AM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Proud to be a lifelong Registered Independent Voter and never bought into following the herd.)
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To: Seydlitz; Coop

"Read "Shadow Warrior" by Felix Rodriguez. Rodriguez, a profoundly anti-Communist Cuban emigre, spent twenty years in the CIA's paramilitary section, operating mostly in Central America and Africa. He did some work with Ollie in the 80s, and paints a pretty damning picture. Perhaps I should not believe a long-serving CIA field operative over a glory-seeking publicity hound."

WOW! You mean this long-serving CIA field operative, who wrote a book about his exploits for profit, isn't seeking glory and publicity?

Maybe you should try to read "Blue's Bastards". It was written by a former enlisted Marine that served with LtCol North in Vietnam.

Coop, I get the distinct impression that Seydlitz, for all of his supposed intellect and higher education, wouldn't have lasted a minute in the FMF.


267 posted on 03/11/2005 8:47:06 AM PST by IGOTMINE (Front Sight. Press. Follow Through. It's a way of life.)
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To: RaceBannon

Race,
The next time you do a Freeper Marine rollcall...PLEASE ADD ME TO THE LIST!

USMC
1985-1995


268 posted on 03/11/2005 8:52:38 AM PST by IGOTMINE (Front Sight. Press. Follow Through. It's a way of life.)
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To: IGOTMINE

Goodness, I didn't know, sorry, I keep adding to the list....


269 posted on 03/11/2005 8:54:20 AM PST by RaceBannon ((Prov 28:1 KJV) The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.)
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To: IGOTMINE
Yeah. I've got no problems with people taking issue over LtCol North's actions, although I like and admire the guy. (But I admittedly get confused to this day, because back then I was overseas and too busy drinking and getting rejected by some of the world's finest to really pay attention to Iran Contra.)

But to say a Naval Academy graduate, career Marine, former NSC member, founder of the Freedom Alliance, TV commentator, and author (multiple times) is dumb, well...

270 posted on 03/11/2005 9:01:00 AM PST by Coop (In memory of a true hero - Pat Tillman)
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To: RaceBannon; IGOTMINE

Put an asterisk by his name. He's former Army! ;-)


271 posted on 03/11/2005 9:08:56 AM PST by Coop (In memory of a true hero - Pat Tillman)
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To: F16Fighter

The estimates of the 20,000 airmen saved because we had Iwo contradict you.


272 posted on 03/11/2005 9:09:43 AM PST by wtc911 ("I would like at least to know his name.")
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To: Coop

HEY! I saw the light.

It's not like I was doing steroids or something :)


273 posted on 03/11/2005 9:10:51 AM PST by IGOTMINE (Front Sight. Press. Follow Through. It's a way of life.)
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To: rcocean
I hate to say it, but it probably was a stupid mistake. It was one of the most heroic battles in history, fought with unparalled bravery by all of those Marines but it was pointless: we already had the range to hit Japan from Guam and Tinian and even China. We had ships and submarines stationed at sea to rescue aircrews.

We spent all of those irreplaceable lives in a carefully-designed deathtrap for no other use than a potential base for crippled bombers and a whole lot of really brave P-51 drivers.

We need to learn from the mistakes made by those commanders - and the commanders that ordered Tarawa and Peleliu - those were mistakes as well.

274 posted on 03/11/2005 9:34:41 AM PST by USMCVet
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To: USMCVet
I respect your opinion, but disagree. I hate to repeat the large number of posts, but possession of Iwo Jima enabled us to provide P-51 escort for the B-29's, a landing strip for damaged bombers and bombers low on fuel, and denied the Japs the use of a early warning base.

Without Iwo, not only would the B-29 losses been much higher, but we would had lose even more planes bombing the island so as stop the Japs from using it to launch fighter attacks.

The problem was the excessive losses due to (a) FDR refused to approve the use of poison gas to take the island; (b) intelligence underestimated the number of Japanese soldiers & artillery/mortars on the island. (c)
the operation was sandwiched between the invasion of Luzon and Okinawa, thereby limiting the Naval Gunfire support and (d) not enough heavy artillery (155mm) and tank support was provided to the Marines.
275 posted on 03/11/2005 10:11:16 AM PST by rcocean
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To: wtc911
"The estimates of the 20,000 airmen saved because we had Iwo contradict you."

And thanks to the pre-IWO intel that grossly "underestimated" Japanese ground forces and artillary strength, the battle was won at enormous costs.

Any projection of "20,000 airmen saved" is largely suspect.

276 posted on 03/11/2005 10:29:31 AM PST by F16Fighter
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To: rcocean; USMCVet

"The problem was the excessive losses due to "

Fact is, it don't matter anymore, that was then. this is now.

Just like Nam, that the troops are being supported by the public now has nothing to do with them not supporting us back when.

and as for the Author of the article. what an idiot!


277 posted on 03/11/2005 10:38:04 AM PST by OldSgt. (USMC, Nam Vet, HMM-165)
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To: rcocean; USMCVet

"The problem was the excessive losses due to "

Fact is, it don't matter anymore, that was then. this is now.

Just like Nam, that the troops are being supported by the public now has nothing to do with them not supporting us back when.

and as for the Author of the article. what an idiot!


278 posted on 03/11/2005 10:38:05 AM PST by OldSgt. (USMC, Nam Vet, HMM-165)
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To: Seydlitz
Ollie's vanity and foolishness caused a major crisis in US foreign policy and almost destroyed the Reagan administration. Why, as conservatives, should we admire him for anything other than his military service?

LTC North, under Adm. Poindexter on the National Security Council staff, was responsible for 8 of the first 9 foreign policy successes of the Reagan administration, which successes included Grenada, Libya, Panama, Achille Lauro (captured hijackers), etc.

This was a complete turn-around from the passive-acceptance policies of Carter.

The politicians pushing Iran-Contra were large "D" Democrats who backed the communist regime of Daniel Ortega against the small "d" democrats in Nicaragua.

The large D's crafted the highly ambiguous Boland Amendments (I believe there were five amendments, collectively known as Boland's "bad law") to frustrate Reagan's desire to free Latin America -- and protect against what was estimated to be 44 million potential refugees who might flee to the U.S. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

Clearly, North was ambitious, but keep in mind that in Vietnam, he turned down purple hearts so he could stay with his men -- in direct contrast to a recent presidential candidate.

National Security Archive

I, as one conservative, admire Ollie North for his many accomplishments.

279 posted on 03/11/2005 11:20:05 AM PST by OESY
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To: Strategerist
I also strongly believe France should have been invaded in 1943 but that's a a pretty controversial one.....

Just before this you state the reason why we didn't land a year earlier. Because after the debacle at Anzio, the American military command was scared crapless that such a tiny force of nazis with insufficient air could kill so many Americans. Yes we won Anzio, but it was bloodbath for our boys and it shocked us how few nazi's there were there after they surrendered. I feel it was at this point our military changed to a "blow the hill to the gorund and then go see if anyone was defending it type strategy". In the western theatre at least.

280 posted on 03/11/2005 11:40:26 AM PST by Diplomat
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