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The Case for the 'FairTax'
Wall Street Journal Online ^ | March 7, 2005 | Laurence J. Kotlikoff

Posted on 03/08/2005 9:20:44 AM PST by n-tres-ted

Our tax code is a mess for a reason. Special interests pay for special favors. And with 17,000 pages and counting, there's plenty of places for our politicians to hide the kickbacks. Meanwhile, all the exemptions, deductions, exceptions and special provisions reduce the tax base, which means higher tax rates and smaller incentives for individuals and companies to produce income. And whether the tax breaks are set in fine print or spelled out in bold type, they generally favor the rich, making our tax system less progressive than is generally believed.

No tax system is perfect, but ours is so awful that fundamental reform is the only option. Fundamental reform is not just a necessity; it's also an opportunity to stop taxing income and start taxing consumption. My colleagues and I have been studying income and consumption taxation via computer simulations for some time now. We've found that switching from taxing wage and capital income to taxing consumption can significantly improve economic efficiency and growth. What's more, it can make our tax system much more progressive and generationally equitable.

(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Government; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: fairtax; kotlikoff; taxes; taxreform
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To: Principled
How many landlords or comercial renters call out the amount of increase in the the rent as a result of the income taxes, payroll taxes, and other federal tax costs of the landlord?

Jesus H. Christ! All of them, you idiot! Have you ever rented commercial manufacturing equipment? How about a copy machine? Read your lease, dumbass!

And if you don't have such a clause in your own leases, you are the chump here.

401 posted on 03/08/2005 8:45:56 PM PST by balrog666 (A myth by any other name is still inane.)
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To: Principled
There already is a tax/tax cost component of rent amonting to 25-33% of the rent. Some people don't see it. It's those people the income tax scheme is fooling.

Irrelevant, immaterial, pointless diversion. Your contract is the vehicle that specifies what you pay. Read it sometime.

402 posted on 03/08/2005 8:47:54 PM PST by balrog666 (A myth by any other name is still inane.)
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To: lewislynn
Who mails the check to the tax collector?

Why does it matter?

403 posted on 03/08/2005 8:48:31 PM PST by Principled
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To: balrog666
You are not on board. You don't get it.

There isn't a single time I've seen "Your lease is $5500 this month. By the way, if it weren't for the income taxes, payroll taxes, and compliance costs I have to recover, I could reduce yor rent to $4250."

But keep on - it's phun to watch.

404 posted on 03/08/2005 8:55:09 PM PST by Principled
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To: balrog666
Irrelevant, immaterial, pointless diversion.

It's irrelevant that prices today are inflated by 25-33% due to taxes and tax costs?

Immaterial and pointless that prices could be 20-25% lower if those costs were removed?

Irrelevant? Immaterial? Pointless?.....Okay. sure.

405 posted on 03/08/2005 8:57:41 PM PST by Principled
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To: Principled
According to you, a shelf price of say $1000 would be taxed $300, for a total of $1300...but the $300 has to be taxed now, so add $90 more for $1390... but now the $90 has to be taxed $27 for a new grand total of $$1417... but wait... the $27 has to be taxed now another $8.10 - ... and then that $8.10 has to be taxed another $2.43... which has to be taxed another 73 cents... which according to you also has to be taxed another 22 cents... and you say that has to be taxed too for anoter 7 cents.... and then you say that 7 cents has to be taxed another 2 cents... and on and on

Not only do you not know the meaning of "gross" and "payment" when used in conjunction with each other you also don't understand the difference between "of" and "on".

Here's a product with a shelf price of $1000 in a state with a 7% sales tax;

$1000 plus 7% (state) = $1070.00

$1070.00 plus $319.61(fairtax) = $1389.61(gross payment)

.23 (of) X $1389.61 (gross payment) = $319.61.

$319.61 of $1389.61 purchase in sales tax terms is 31.61% on a $1000.00 shelf price.

406 posted on 03/08/2005 9:02:15 PM PST by lewislynn (My other car is an XC90 T6 AWD....)
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To: lewislynn
Here's a product with a shelf price of $1000 in a state with a 7% sales tax;

But the nrst doesn't tax state sales taxes, or any other tax. It's just an increase in shelf price of 29.87% - which is the same thing as 23% of the gross payment to include the federal tax in question.

407 posted on 03/08/2005 9:04:43 PM PST by Principled
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To: Principled
Some people don't see it

That's because it isn't there, unless, no one but you can see it...

408 posted on 03/08/2005 9:08:14 PM PST by lewislynn (My other car is an XC90 T6 AWD....)
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To: lewislynn
Just so you know, a $1000 shelf price in a 7% state sales tax would be $300 for the nrst and $70 for the state for a total of $1370. The nrst doesn't tax the state sales tax, and he state sales tax doesn't tax the nrst.

That would be stoopid.

409 posted on 03/08/2005 9:08:26 PM PST by Principled
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To: lewislynn
That's because it isn't there, unless, no one but you can see it...

That deosn't make sense.

Anyway, so now you're saying that prices are not inflated at all by taxes and tax costs eh?

410 posted on 03/08/2005 9:10:12 PM PST by Principled
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To: Principled
It would be stupid to think otherwise.

At least you got that right.

Further, that is not related to the topic.

How stupid of me to think there might be mortgage payments involved in rentals

Rentals and rent payments was the subject.

411 posted on 03/08/2005 9:13:54 PM PST by lewislynn (My other car is an XC90 T6 AWD....)
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To: Apogee
I would be for it if necessities were not taxed first, then rebated. i.e. food, personal real property, first vehicle maybe.

Don't forget your utility bills: water, electric, gas.... the NRST is going to tax the bejeezus out of those, too!!!

412 posted on 03/08/2005 9:47:29 PM PST by Willie Green (Go Pat Go!!!)
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To: Willie Green; Apogee
Don't forget your utility bills: water, electric, gas.... the NRST is going to tax the bejeezus out of those, too!!!

It's even worse than that. An NST is a tax "of the gross payment it would tax all of the taxes in utility bills: water, electric, gas, telephone

413 posted on 03/08/2005 9:51:28 PM PST by lewislynn (My other car is an XC90 T6 AWD....)
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To: Principled
just an increase in shelf price of 29.87% - which is the same thing as 23% of the gross payment

----

Just so you know, a $1000 shelf price in a 7% state sales tax would be $300 for the nrst and $70 for the state for a total of $1370

So how is $300.00 23% of a total of $1370.00 (gross payment)?

414 posted on 03/08/2005 10:06:46 PM PST by lewislynn (My other car is an XC90 T6 AWD....)
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To: groanup; All
People to congress: We demand a transparent tax. An NRST. Since congress created the Income Tax in 1913 it has proven that it can't be trusted to honor it's word. With a transparent NRST the people will speak loudly with one voice and demand that government reduce spending.

If you don't like tax  transparency shining the spot light on you you've made it obvious that you have something to hide and must be removed from congress..

415 posted on 03/08/2005 10:45:26 PM PST by Zon (Honesty outlives the lie, spin and deception -- It always has -- It always will.)
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To: Principled
Why doesn't the effective federal tax rate for the income tax include any costs paid by consumer in the prices of goods and services? You know, the business taxes and tax costs that are recovered in prices.
Maybe because taxes are paid only once and all taxes are accounted for in the CBO percentages.


We disagree on the amount I know... but are you now saying that there is zero price inflation due to business taxes and tax costs
I've never said the prices are inflated due to taxes, I've only tried to state the maximum they could be in prices to show how silly the numbers being thrown around are. It could very well be that there is zero price inflation due to taxes.
416 posted on 03/08/2005 11:52:13 PM PST by Your Nightmare
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To: Principled
Look how dumb that idea is....
Actually, that's exactly how a tax inclusive sales tax works. The tax is taxing itself.
417 posted on 03/08/2005 11:55:36 PM PST by Your Nightmare
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To: Principled; lewislynn; balrog666
How many landlords or comercial renters call out the amount of increase in the the rent as a result of the income taxes, payroll taxes, and other federal tax costs of the landlord?
Under the FairTax, how many landlords do you think are going to say "here's the FairTax I have to send into the government and here's the portion of your rent I have to charge you because I have to pay the FairTax on my personal purchases."

If you think the rent is inflated due to the landlord paying the income tax why don't you think it will be inflated due to the landlord paying the FairTax on his personal purchases?
418 posted on 03/09/2005 12:00:21 AM PST by Your Nightmare
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To: Principled
Why doesn't the effective federal tax rate for the income tax include any costs paid by consumer in the prices of goods and services?

For the same reason it doesn't show your employer paid health ins., dental care, matching 401K, retirement, paid sick leave, paid vacation and other employee benefits embedded in the price of every American made product.

Because it isn't sucked up in a vacuum then vaporized into the atmosphere. It's actually someone elses income which is included in the income column therefore it's also a factor in the effective tax rate.

419 posted on 03/09/2005 12:03:45 AM PST by lewislynn (My other car is an XC90 T6 AWD....)
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To: Your Nightmare
If you think the rent is inflated due to the landlord paying the income tax why don't you think it will be inflated due to the landlord paying the FairTax on his personal purchases?

I see you have trouble following one note Johnny's one track mind.

Dont't you see? It won't matter if s/he has to pay 30% sales taxes because prices will fall 33%...doncha know?

A lot of people go into buying rental property knowing there would be -0- or negative cash flow in the beginning...They of course will be the first ones to lower their rent 20 to 30% because of all that "tax and tax costs" they would no longer have to pay.< /sarcasm >

420 posted on 03/09/2005 12:22:53 AM PST by lewislynn (My other car is an XC90 T6 AWD....)
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