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Fact is, this theory is under attack (Evolution Revolution Alert)
Baltimoresun.com ^
| 5 Feb 2005
| Arthur Hirsch
Posted on 02/05/2005 11:37:51 AM PST by gobucks
click here to read article
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To: balrog666; _Jim
Truer words were never posted. Not any more...
Proverbs 1:22
"You simpletons!" she cries. "How long will you go on being simpleminded? How long will you mockers relish your mocking? How long will you fools fight the facts? 23Come here and listen to me! I'll pour out the spirit of wisdom upon you and make you wise.
341
posted on
02/05/2005 8:08:55 PM PST
by
gobucks
(http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/classics/students/Ribeiro/laocoon.htm)
To: FastCoyote
Checked out the first link briefly. These appear to be bones, not fossils. How do we know these were found as a whole as opposed to fabricated? How are we supposed to know whether these particular bones lend credence to the notion that whales once had hips or legs? What benefit would there be in terms of survival for natural selection to eliminate the same? Why did natural selection deprive humans of the obvious benefit of gills?
Please be advised that whatever you propose in the way of an answer will not be received as an article of fact, but as an article of faith.
To: Tench_Coxe
I want to see a definite prediction that bears fruit, i.e., starting with simple organisms, without purposeful prior selection, a demonstration of enviromental conditions forcing a change in species.Typicaly human investigators don't live long enough to observe speciation in animals. However, the rapid evolution response of bacteria to the stressor of antibiotics is a well-documented phenomenon that has been known for many years.
343
posted on
02/05/2005 8:09:54 PM PST
by
Rudder
To: Tench_Coxe
No. The mechanics of gravity are well known. And I'm not about to get into some stupid 'gotcha' comparison of Newtonian physics and Relativity.
I'm not trying to pull you into that game. I'm merely pointing out that even when the mechanics of a process are known, it is not always possible to preduct the ultimate outcome of an event that will utilize that process.
And I'm not talking in the sense of " we see a progression of evidence in the fossil record, therefore, we predict a progression of evidence in the fossil record " crap. That is a tautology.
You're right. The progression of evidence in the fossil record was made after it was predicted, thus that would count as a successful prediction of the theory, not a tautology.
As for the trap of explaining mechanics, lets just say that the laws governing the motion of planets around the sun can predict within a rather good degree of accuracy where those planets will be 10 years from now.
A giant asteroid hitting one of the planets and knocking it out of orbit would falsify the prediction, but this would not falsify what we know about the laws of motion.
344
posted on
02/05/2005 8:11:00 PM PST
by
Dimensio
(http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
To: FastCoyote
Found behind the potter's shed, eh?
345
posted on
02/05/2005 8:11:27 PM PST
by
bvw
To: FastCoyote
Yeah sure, you obviously have never had a single class in thermo. Anyone who repeatedly uses the phrase 'thermodynamic mechanism' surely never has.
To: From many - one.
Nor are the wood boring beetles, nor shipworms, nor barnicles, nor opossums.
347
posted on
02/05/2005 8:13:30 PM PST
by
Doctor Stochastic
(Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
To: WildTurkey
Perhaps because you slept through your science classes.As I recall, my science classes did not make a big deal out of evolution. Hardly even mentioned it. With respect to Jr. High biology my grades were excellent.
To: Fester Chugabrew
Check #337, a fossil whale with legs and arms. Oooops, guess that's impossible.
My point with the modern humpback skeleton is that it even has floating pelvic bones, and there are descriptions from whalers with even greater vestigial structures depending on the species, etc. Believe what you want. I'm going with the story visible in the bones.
To: Fester Chugabrew
How do we know these were found as a whole as opposed to fabricated?How do we know you're not a space alien?
To: Fester Chugabrew
With respect to Jr. High biology my grades were excellent.No doubt. Social promotion, I dare say.
To: Rudder
"Typicaly human investigators don't live long enough to observe speciation in animals. However, the rapid evolution response of bacteria to the stressor of antibiotics is a well-documented phenomenon that has been known for many years."
True. But propose an experiment. Take a bacteria with flagella, then create environmental conditions in which those flagella are not conducive to functioning well in that environment ( or, conversely, take a simple cell organism without flagella, and produce an environment in which they are necessary to function ), and slowly change the environment to produce the necessary changes ( intermediate forms ) for the characteristics to evolve.
Successful, this establishes a certain baseline case to formulate prediction, and have it verified by discovery. I haven't seen this yet.
To: FastCoyote
Okay. I see what you mean in #337. I just can't infer by necessity that the presence of such bones is to be interpreted as a vestigial aspect of evolutionary history. At the same time I must accord a great deal of respect to the aptitude with which these ancient components have been assembled and documented.
To: Dimensio
"A giant asteroid hitting one of the planets and knocking it out of orbit would falsify the prediction, but this would not falsify what we know about the laws of motion."
OK. Let's accept this argument.
Now, knowing a trajectory of the asteroid, and it's mass, one can go back and determine the results.
Can you say the same for providing environmental conditions and predicting an end result?
To: Right Wing Professor
You said 'scientists'. I've not noticed elsewhere you lack literacy. That's a second lie, Mr. Christian. Is he, or is he not, an incarnation of the much reviled ALS?
355
posted on
02/05/2005 8:21:00 PM PST
by
balrog666
(A myth by any other name is still inane.)
To: Right Wing Professor
Social promotion, I dare say.Ha! Wish I had that kind of clout.
To: Right Wing Professor
"Anyone who repeatedly uses the phrase 'thermodynamic mechanism' surely never has"
That's right, all those engineering credits were a waste. And my hobby of pulsejet combustion gives me no opportunity to use thermodynamic theory. And work debunking envirowackos for the American Nuclear Energy Council gave me no opportunity to debunk similar thermodynamic falacies. And my in-house combustion code I wrote for an airplane simulator is completely wrong after countless hours of checking.
Yup, I'm stupid as a brick, do doubt about it. And did you have a factual disagreement with something I said, or were you just bloviating?
To: longshadow
Been away about 6 hours. Just got back from a friend's wedding party. All outstanding posts to me are gonna just fade into cyber oblivion.
358
posted on
02/05/2005 8:21:42 PM PST
by
PatrickHenry
(<-- Click on my name. The List-O-Links for evolution threads is at my freeper homepage.)
To: furball4paws
. Government Scientist is an oxymoron, and especially in the Life Sciences, government scientists are typically an inferior lot. So we have this inferior lot leading around the best brains in the business. It's not awful, but our progress could have been much greater if they would get out of the way. Disagree. Drug companies do a lot of biological research. I know good scientists both there and in NIH labs. They both have to deal with bureaucratic nonsense, in different ways.
To: Tench_Coxe
Sex is a selective pressure, and it enables intervention. Thus, human beings selectively bred animals to elmininate unwanted traits and to maximize preferred traits. The examples are abundant.
360
posted on
02/05/2005 8:22:16 PM PST
by
Rudder
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