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Slaying of 4 may be tied to (Islamic) religious extremism (NJ Christian family had throats slit)
Bergen Record ^ | Sunday, January 16, 2005 | TOM TRONCONE

Posted on 01/16/2005 5:22:26 AM PST by dead

Islamic extremists may have murdered four members of a Coptic Orthodox family found bound, gagged and with their throats slit on Friday in their Jersey City home, a law-enforcement official familiar with the case said.

The official confirmed that Hudson County investigators, as well the FBI, were "knee-deep" in pulling computer records and were coming to terms with the possibility that the family may have been targeted for death because of exchanges about religion in an Internet chat room.

The official cautioned, though, that investigators have not ruled out other possibilities, such as a robbery gone awry.

Hossam Armanious, 47, Amal Garas, 37, and their daughters Sylvia, 15, and Monica, 8, were found dead in their Oakland Avenue home early Friday after family members alerted police that nobody had heard from them in days.

First Assistant Hudson County Prosecutor Guy Gregory declined to discuss any details of the case, other than to confirm that police have ruled out a dispute the family had with a former tenant as a possible motive. He cautioned against speculating about the motive behind the murders.

"This is a very delicate investigation and one where we have spent hours at the scene collecting evidence and with the evidence collection complete, we're moving to bring in people that we feel need to be interviewed," Gregory said. "It's unfortunate that people are speculating."

But as the theory spread that revenge and religion were the driving forces behind one of the most heinous murders in the county's long history, fear enveloped the city's Coptic community.

Friends, relatives and co-worshippers of the devout family spent much of Saturday wondering how the seemingly upstanding Armanious family could fall victim to such a shockingly brutal crime. Several spoke of Hossam Armanious' participation in heated discussions about the Islamic faith on the Paltalk.com messenger service and threats he received for expressing his views about the religion.

Milad Garas, an uncle of Amal Garas, said Saturday that he was told investigators are probing whether the killings could have been prompted in part by the chat sessions. He also pointed to a passage in the Muslim holy book, the Quran, that details how enemies should be killed - bound and their throats slit, an assertion that drew a rebuttal from some Islamic scholars, but was supported by others.

A translation of passage 47:4 of the Quran reads in part: "Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers [in fight], smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly [on them]."

"There is a very wide range of interpretation of that, and it depends on where people are in the spectrum," said Frederick M. Denny, a professor of religious studies at the University of Colorado and author of more than a dozen books on Islam. "If they were going toward the extremist side, it could lead someone to believe it is justified. ... There are those that take that [passage] quite literally."

The close-knit Coptic community promised protests if the religious revenge theory proves accurate.

"If it turns out they were killed for religion, then we will [protest]," said Ayman Garas, Amal's younger brother. "We have to be patient, we can't do anything stupid. ... But it looks like it is religion, maybe."

The Armanious family moved to the United States from Egypt in part to escape religious persecution. Hossam Armanious had sensed a rise in anti-Christian extremism and wanted to make a better life for his family in America, Ayman Garas said.

"What I really want to know is: How?'' he said. "We just can't believe it at this point. Everything has passed like a dream."

The details of what may have been said in the chat sessions were not known Saturday night.

Fred Ayad, deacon of the couple's St. George Coptic Orthodox Church, said that the entire community was in a "panic" over the apparent targeting of the family, as well as the murders of a Coptic deacon in December and a Coptic cabdriver in late 2003.

Prosecutor Gregory said the conjecture about the murders is hampering his office's investigation, which he said has been exhaustive.

Copts are Egyptian Christians, a minority group of about 6 million in a nation of 60 million, and have been killed in religious rioting and during attacks on Christian churches by Islamic militants. Coptic leaders also say they lack representation in the Egyptian government and are treated like second-class citizens.

Over the past decade, Copts have increasingly immigrated to the United States. Currently, they number about 1 million in this country. Coptic Orthodox churches are scattered throughout the nation and, while there is no official count, Coptic Web sites list about 10 large congregations in New Jersey and about 20 in the tri-state area.

Islamic leaders said Saturday that the murders could not have been the work of someone inspired by the Quran.

"We are not a bloody people," said Ahmed Shedeed, director of the Islamic Center of Jersey City. "This is not from the Quran. This is not from Islam at all."

Shedeed, who is Egyptian, said his group recently co-founded a social service organization with local Coptic churches, called Egyptian Family.

"We are trying to get religious leaders from both communities to meet on a monthly basis to break the ice between the people," he said. "We meet as individuals, but as organizations we never have done such a thing. We are trying to show that Egyptians together can benefit."

Shedeed said that as part of that effort, he attended Christmas Eve services at St. George's this year.

Asked about passages in the Quran that may suggest murdering non-believers in a manner that resembles the family's deaths, he replied, "The Quran talks about people fighting in the battle of war. It's not talking about people who live next to you. ... This has nothing to do with our community at all."

"The Quran stands very firmly against taking human life," said noted Islamic author Zayn Kassam, chairwoman of the religious studies department of Pomona College in California. "If someone read a verse and used it to justify the killing of four people, I believe that person is unbalanced. ... There are very few Muslims who would support this sort of thing."

On Saturday, the family received mourners at the church, as friends left lighted candles and flowers in front of the home. Neighbors talked of an exhaustive police investigation, with a former Armanious tenant, Nelly Ramirez, saying police had questioned her, her son and her son's girlfriend.

Meanwhile, friends of Sylvia, a high school sophomore who would have turned 16 on Saturday, lingered in front of the house, alternately crying and laughing. They talked of an extremely gifted teen who recently won a trip to Italy from the National Honor Society for a series of essays she wrote on topics such as Shakespeare and Charles Dickens.

"She used to write all the time," said her friend Jankil Patel, 15. "She used to go to church all the time. ... She'd debate people in class and even had a religious tattoo on her [right wrist]."

"She had a lot of friends; she was very popular," said Jessica Cimino, 15, another friend. Cimino and the other girls said they plan to attend the family funeral on Monday and wear T-shirts bearing Sylvia's image to school on Tuesday.

Ayman and Milad Garad and other family members were allowed into the crime scene for the first time on Saturday morning to gather the needed paperwork for the cemetery. They left the home with a briefcase and several other items, including a tank with several small turtles inside.

Staff Writer Kathleen Carroll contributed to this story. E-mail: troncone@northjersey.com


TOPICS: Breaking News; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: New Jersey
KEYWORDS: aliens; anothermissedstory; antichrist; armanious; comingtoyourhomenext; coptic; dhimmi; extremism; foxnewsasleepagain; gihad; holywar; islam; islamofascism; jerseycity; jihadinamerica; jihadtsunami; koran; koranimals; mediamissliketsunami; muslims; nicejobmedia; nukemecca; quran; religionofpeace; religionofpieces; terrorism; trop; war; waronterror; whereiscair; whereiscnn; whereisfnc; whereismsnbc; whilethemediasleeps
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To: SheLion

I think Fox is doing a good job giving both motives. However, the AP is the source of many of the articles today.

**A factoid I found interesting (from the Copts.net site) "Christians often tattoo the cross on their children's wrists. Should parents meet an early death, many courts insist on an Islamic education for their children. But the sign of the cross gives Christian orphanages a basis for requesting that they be allowed to care for the child."


621 posted on 01/17/2005 9:37:06 AM PST by debg
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To: Diva
Detroit has the distinction of being only one terrorist group fewer than New York city!

I believe Detroit has the biggest Mosque in America. I would lay a bet that Detroit Mosque is the main HQ for all the rest in the United States.

622 posted on 01/17/2005 9:38:53 AM PST by SheLion (God bless our military members and keep them safe.)
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To: debg
**A factoid I found interesting (from the Copts.net site) "Christians often tattoo the cross on their children's wrists. Should parents meet an early death, many courts insist on an Islamic education for their children. But the sign of the cross gives Christian orphanages a basis for requesting that they be allowed to care for the child."

I don't know if I read it or Fox News reported it, but the one girl had that cross tattooed on her wrist and who ever killed them, had put a knife wound right through that cross.  More reason for suspicion.

If it was one of our own, they wouldn't have been so bitter over that cross.  This is just another reason to lean toward the Muslim Fanatic as the perps.

623 posted on 01/17/2005 9:41:28 AM PST by SheLion (God bless our military members and keep them safe.)
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To: SheLion

Well, I just checked the NY Post website. The Post was the paper with the most detailed article yesterday I believe, the one that had the tatoo being slashed etc.

There is nothing at the NY Post site that I can find today on this story. Nada.

No there's been no reporting on the headless body that I've heard on Fox.


624 posted on 01/17/2005 9:41:31 AM PST by prairiebreeze (George W Bush: Spending well-earned political capital.)
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To: prairiebreeze

Here's a link to today's NY Post article:

http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/38798.htm


625 posted on 01/17/2005 9:47:21 AM PST by debg
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To: prairiebreeze
No there's been no reporting on the headless body that I've heard on Fox.

It was in print. One of the local newspapers printed the article about the headless body being found in NJ. But nothing on Fox yet. Unless they put it on the scroll and I missed it.

626 posted on 01/17/2005 9:53:39 AM PST by SheLion (God bless our military members and keep them safe.)
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To: SheLion

But, but, but the written media now states that the cross tatoo was not cut! I believe that they are dancing as fast as they can to disavow anything that supports a hate crime.


627 posted on 01/17/2005 9:56:22 AM PST by debg
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To: debg

Thank you very much! I evidently didn't see the drop down box under their news section and just got the top page. Will read it now.


628 posted on 01/17/2005 9:57:16 AM PST by prairiebreeze (George W Bush: Spending well-earned political capital.)
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To: SheLion

Severed head story not terror related

http://www.app.com/app/story/0,21625,1177950,00.html


629 posted on 01/17/2005 9:57:56 AM PST by freeperfromnj
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To: debg
But, but, but the written media now states that the cross tatoo was not cut! I believe that they are dancing as fast as they can to disavow anything that supports a hate crime.

Oh brother!

630 posted on 01/17/2005 9:59:39 AM PST by SheLion (God bless our military members and keep them safe.)
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To: debg; SheLion

The next thing we know, they'll be back to telling us it was a disgruntled tenant that did it.


631 posted on 01/17/2005 10:00:27 AM PST by prairiebreeze (George W Bush: Spending well-earned political capital.)
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To: freeperfromnj
It appeared that Persieck decapitated himself by tying one end of a rope to a light post and the other end to his neck, before pressing the accelerator in his car, Kaye said.

WHAAAAT???? OMG!  I have heard it all now. heh!

632 posted on 01/17/2005 10:00:55 AM PST by SheLion (God bless our military members and keep them safe.)
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To: prairiebreeze

Don't miss this thread: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1322534/posts

"A Berkeley rally against terrorism that featured a bombed Israeli bus turned briefly violent Sunday when angry counter demonstrators carrying Palestinian flags marched into the mostly pro-Israel crowd.

Riot police quickly separated combatants, some of whom came to blows, during the afternoon event organized by the Israeli Action Committee of the East Bay. Police cited one man on a charge of misdemeanor battery."

Most were reserved, but some 40 people, mostly men of Middle Eastern descent, yelled and exchanged taunts with pro-Israeli demonstrators across the street.

snip

"Two, four, six, eight, we are martyrs, we can't wait,'' chanted the group, most of whom wore kaffiyehs -- the cloth headdress closely associated with Palestinian militants."


633 posted on 01/17/2005 10:12:15 AM PST by debg
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Jan 17, 1:08 PM EST

Immigrant family slain in New Jersey; some mourners suggest motive was religious tension

By WAYNE PARRY
Associated Press Writer

JERSEY CITY, N.J. (AP) -- A funeral for a couple and their two daughters slain last week devolved into a melee following the emotional services Monday, with about 35 of the 2,000 mourners shoving and punching each other.

Tensions had been running high during the funeral procession and services for 47-year-old Hossam Armanious, his 37-year-old wife, Amal Garas, and their daughters, Sylvia, 15, and Monica, 8. Some mourners blamed their deaths on religious tensions in the Coptic Christian family's native Egypt.

A brief melee between several dozen mourners spilled onto the street and into a nearby parking garage as the services ended. Police pushed mourners against cars and rolled down the metal gates of the garage, attempting to separate the fighters before telling everyone to leave.

During the service, one man was taken into police custody after repeatedly shouting anti-Muslim slogans. It was not immediately clear whether charges were filed against him or any of the people in the fight.

Published reports over the weekend said investigators were examining religious messages Armanious had posted in an Internet chat room, and mourners said the killings may have been religiously motivated.

The regional head of the Coptic church cautioned against a rush to judgment, but Monir Dowoud, president of the American Coptic Association, said Sunday that "Muslim terrorists" were responsible.

Prosecutors downplayed the possibility of a religious motive, and local Muslims vehemently disputed the suggestion. About two dozen Muslim mourners attended the funeral Monday, piling their shoes in a corner before entering, as is Islamic custom.

But anti-Muslim sentiments ran high during the procession and ceremony at St. George & St. Shenouda Coptic Orthodox Church, where the Armanious family was active since immigrating to the United States in 1997.

One man in the church shouted, "Muslim is the killer. Muslim is the killer," and was taken into custody by city police.

The procession also was marked by pushing and shoving and people shouting anti-Muslim slogans. One man ran alongside the procession screaming, "Islam is not a religion. Islam is not a religion."

More than 2,000 people filled the church and an additional 300 waited outside during the services, which featured a Sunday school teacher's reading of a poem written by Sylvia.

"No more sadness to darken my day," said teacher Miriam Fam, reading the poem. "No more rain to fog my daydreams. No more pain in my life. No more fear of getting killed with life's knife."

Not everyone was searching for someone to blame for the deaths. Maged Badawi, who attended the funeral, counseled caution.

"I don't want to jump to conclusions yet. We need to let the police do their investigation. But there is lots of tension right now between Christians and Muslims over this," he said.

During the procession earlier Monday, Iman Garas, sister of the slain mother, ran up and pounded on the caskets, screaming, "Oh, my God. Oh, my God. They've left me all alone!"

Authorities had not announced any arrests in the slayings as of Monday morning. The four bodies were found bound and gagged early Friday, and police said there was no sign of forced entry into the home.

In Egypt, Copts generally live in peace with Muslims, but it is a sometimes uneasy relationship. In 2000, 23 people died in Christian-Muslim clashes, the worst in years. Copts comprise roughly 10 percent of Egypt's 70 million population.

Authorities said robbery remained a possible motive because no cash or jewelry were found in the home. Guy Gregory, first assistant Hudson County prosecutor, said the father's wallet was found empty.

The Coptic Orthodox Church is one of the oldest communities in Christendom. According to tradition it was founded in the first century A.D. by Saint Mark, one of the 12 apostles of Jesus.

Last month, thousands of angry Copts protested for days at a Cairo cathedral when rumors circulated that a Coptic Christian woman had been forced to convert to Islam. Days of protests and stone-throwing at the cathedral in Abbasiya, Cairo, left two dozen police injured and 34 Copts detained.

Copts generally live in peace with Muslims, but it is a sometimes uneasy relationship in which sectarian tensions can erupt. In 2000, the deadliest Christian-Muslim clashes in years killed 23 people, all but two of them Copts, touched off by an argument between a Coptic merchant and a Muslim shopper, also in southern Egypt.

In 2002, brawls broke out in a southern Egyptian village after an argument over whether a Coptic church's bells tolled too loudly. During an Islamic insurrection in Egypt in the early 1990s, Copts were occasionally attacked by Muslim militants.


634 posted on 01/17/2005 10:14:10 AM PST by freeperfromnj
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To: freeperfromnj

They had quite the melee there. I just saw it on Fox News.


635 posted on 01/17/2005 10:27:31 AM PST by SheLion (God bless our military members and keep them safe.)
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To: dead

The Quran stands very firmly against taking human life," said noted Islamic author Zayn Kassam, chairwoman of the religious studies department of Pomona College in California. "If someone read a verse and used it to justify the killing of four people, I believe that person is unbalanced. ... There are very few Muslims who would support this sort of thing."

What!!!!!!!


636 posted on 01/17/2005 10:45:38 AM PST by rlwinston
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To: dead

The Quran stands very firmly against taking human life," said noted Islamic author Zayn Kassam, chairwoman of the religious studies department of Pomona College in California. "If someone read a verse and used it to justify the killing of four people, I believe that person is unbalanced. ... There are very few Muslims who would support this sort of thing."

What!!!!!!!


637 posted on 01/17/2005 10:45:47 AM PST by rlwinston
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To: tkathy; dead; ReadyNow; MarMema; Kolokotronis; Destro; kosta50; Agrarian; StonyBurk; dAnconia; ...
The MSM better deal with this loud and clear. If Christians had slit the throats of Muslims, there would be howling at the moon.

So true.

PC is so firmly entrenched in the U.S. due largely to it being preached to us constantly by the MSM that only a Muslim nuke in a American metropolis will end it.

638 posted on 01/17/2005 10:56:18 AM PST by The_Media_never_lie
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To: dead

New Jersey is presently infested by jihadists(Atta and his crew lived amongst them for a time), and something needs to be done. I doubt these murders were a random act; it was probably instigated by a fatal fatwa. Pressure should be brought to bear on their imans and so called community leaders, so that they give up the depraved murderers or take the proverbial heat.


639 posted on 01/17/2005 10:56:24 AM PST by sheik yerbouty
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To: dead

New Jersey is presently infested by jihadists(Atta and his crew lived amongst them for a time), and something needs to be done. I doubt these murders were a random act; it was probably instigated by a fatal fatwa. Pressure should be brought to bear on their imans and so called community leaders, so that they give up the depraved murderers or take the proverbial heat.


640 posted on 01/17/2005 10:56:25 AM PST by sheik yerbouty
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