THE PING!Posted on 01/13/2005 8:10:49 AM PST by Rutles4Ever
(AGI) - Vatican City, 12 Jan - The Pope commented today on the Apocalypse before the 7,000 people attending the General Papal Audience today in the Nervi Hall, indicating that the fight between good and evil, personified by Satan, is a very hard one, as shown by the manifold violence and injustice in the world today, however the outcome is certain, evil will be vanquished. Pope John Paul II explained, "God and the Lamb, Christ, surrounded by the 'Council of the Crown', are judging human history in good and evil, but showing us however the ultimate end in salvation and glory. The songs which are found in the Apocalypse and which serve to illustrate the issue of divine glory which regulates the flux, often disconcerting, of the tide of human events". Of great significance is the first part of the hymn intoned by the 24 ancients who seem to incarnate the chosen people in their two historic stages, the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve apostles of the Church. The Pope continued, Satan, the original adversary, who accused our brothers in the heavenly court, has now been cast down from heaven and therefore no longer has great power. He knows he has not much time left because history is about to see a radical turning point in freedom from evil and therefore he is reacting full of great fury. And then the resurrected Christ will rise up, whose blood is the principle of salvation and who received from the Father royal power over the entire universe, in Him are centred salvation, strength and the kingdom of our God. In his victory are associated the Christian martyrs who chose the path of the cross, not yielding to evil and it virulence, but delivering themselves to the Father and uniting themselves to the death of Christ by means of a testimony of donation and courage which brought them to give up life in order to die". He concluded, "the words of the Apocalypse regarding those who have vanquished Satan and evil through the blood of the Lamb, echo also in the splendid prayer attributed to the Christian martyr Simeon, from Seleucia-Ctesifonte in Persia, 'I will receive life without pain, worry, anguish, persecutor, persecuted, oppressor, oppressed, tyrant or victim, there I will see no threat of king, or terror of prefects, no-one will quote me in court or terrorise me and no-one will drag me or scare me". (AGI) . 121425 GEN 05
"Because she was born without Original Sin doesn't mean she wasn't born of the flesh. Adam was brought from the earth. He was of the flesh. He did not have a spiritual body, either, but he was free of sin until the fall..."
This is not a Biblical statement, it comes from some man. We are not to worship other human beings and no matter what you claim, worship of Mary is part of what this church does.
I don't think you even know what purgatory is, do you?
Hint: everyone in purgatory is saved by the merits of Christ. Absolutely everyone, without exception.
IOW, you know more about Catholicism than Catholics do, so they should just shut up and let you tell them what they believe.
He has made some every strong references to the Apocalypse, and the end times in relation to our times. A recent specific example was at the revelation of teh alledged third Secret of Fatima in 2000 - wherein JPII, broke from a prepared text to make a specific reference to the Book or Revelations and to our times.
What he was saying was that "all is not as it seems".....and indicating that there was more ot the message then what was given by Cardinal Sodano.
Your observation is a good one. Let me concur, and go further by saying that we do not know what he knows. JPII is all too familiar with Scripture, as well as private revelations/prophecies concerning the end times. He is well versed in these things.
Those of us who are Catholic understand that this pope is a "marked man" - a point man in history, who is both an enigma, a stumbling block (to both liberals and conservatives), and a teacher & symbol of Christian hope. We also know that he has personally had private revelations about such things.
We also believe that he is under the special protection of Mary - as the Mother of the Redeemer, and the highest of all men because of her obedience to God, and cooperation in the ministry and redeptive actions of her Son.
So.......he, whiile being a frail and (personally) fallible mortal man, like us all, is in a special position. I would not want to bear his cross.
From the Gospel of John (King James Version):
6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
6:48 I am that bread of life.
6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?
6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said,
This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
Are you sure you shouldn't be worshiping in synagogue, melbell?
From the Gospel of John (King James Version):
6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
6:48 I am that bread of life.
6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?
6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
6:59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
6:60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said,
This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
Are you sure you shouldn't be worshiping in synagogue, melbell?
Excuse the double post, don't read anything into it. ;o)
What one must realize - whether or not you believe in Fatima, or are Catholic, is that this pope IS the Pope of Fatima. Read up on what happened at Fatima.
Then realize this: in 1917 Islam was largely unheard of in the West. This was true even some 40 years ago - it was a foot note in history, whose power was long past. Neither in 1917 nor in 1960 would nyone have envisioned Islam as being a "geo religion" - much less having tremendous military and political power.
Thus, in addition to the other ramifications of Our Lady's appritions and messeges at Fatima, we have the ascendanccy of Islam - all to clearly hinted at in the word "Fatima" itself.......which is the name of the daughter of Mohammed.
This also bears out numerous private revelations which speak of a resurgence of Islam.
Are you sure YOU shouldn't be worshipping in a coven??
Oh boy...looky there...I made a really STUPID and IGNORANT assumption about your beliefs when I don't know anything about you...hmm...
/sarcasm
"Where is Churchill when we need him?"
Or Reagan...the world sure could use another great man like Ronald Reagan. Where are the great men?
What can we know about you but what you post here?
Are we obliged to take your ignorant insults without reaction (even in good spirit).
Has anyone ever pointed out to you your extremely short fuse?
Ok.
The lead line sounded a lot like the President talking to America about the war on terror, doesn't it.
THE PING!The Psalm then refers to the defeat of Satan, who, having been "cast out" from heaven, "no longer has great power."
________________________________________________________
That happened 2,000 years ago. Not only that, but Satan was bound, the Kingdom has come, and we are living in 'the millenium'.
. Mat 12:22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
Mat 12:23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
Mat 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard [it], they said, This [fellow] doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
Mat 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
Mat 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
Mat 12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast [them] out? therefore they shall be your judges.
Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Mat 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, **** except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat012.html#29
'....THE JUDGMENT OF THE DRAGON.
Chap. xx. 1-3.---‘And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and cast him into the abyss, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he might deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.’
We now approach a portion of the Apocalypse which is involved in much obscurity, and which, from the very nature of the case, passes beyond the limits which, by the express declarations of the writer, again and again repeated, circumscribe the rest of the prophecy of this book.
The fact that such a protracted period as a thousand years is embraced in the visions of the Apocalypse is considered by many an incontrovertible proof that the fulfillment of the predictions which it contains is not to be restricted to a brief period....'
I agree that the thousand years, what the Tim LaHayes call 'the millenium' is figurative, and I agree that the next meeting with the dragon was at time far down the road. See Revelation 20:7-10, which I agree is parenthitical [which makes me not a full preterist]:
THE LOOSING OF SATAN AFTER THE THOUSAND YEARS.
Chap. xx. 7-10.---[‘And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall go out TO DECEIVE the nations which are in the four corners of the earth [land], God and Magog, to gather them together to the battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth [land], and compassed the campl of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast in to the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet are, and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.’]
The Parousia
By James Stuart Russell
The Parousia in the Apocalypse.
The Sixth Vision
THE HARLOT CITY, Chaps. xvii. xviii. xix xx.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1878_russell_parousia/russell_parousia_03g.html
My personal opinion is that we are in that time frame right now.
"But clearly both Justin Martyr and Irenaeus believed 1800 years ago in a premilinial view which you said was a view that was only 170 years." ~ DannyTN
"The Secret Rapture" idea was dreamed up out of whole cloth by a nineteenth-century ex-Anglican priest, John Nelson Darby about 165-175 years ago.. None of the Church Fathers (including Justin Martyr and Irenaeus) believed in a secret Rapture, nor a lot of other scenerios that are typical of the various flavors of modern dispensationalism.
"While the pre-tribulational, pre-millennial dispensationalist scheme has certaily caught in American Christianity, vis. Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye's popularizing (Late Great Planet Earth; Left Behind serial offerings), and within the 20th century promoted on a more scholarly basis by Lewis Chafer and Dallas Seminary and others, who in turn took it from C.I. Scofield and his Scofield Study Bible, it is a novel view of eschatology.
A novel view that is having less and less support among even some dispensationalists...
It is not based upon historic Reformational theology in any sense, and is completely at odds with covenantal Reformed theology. Point of fact, it was *never* taught, believed, or even hinted at, by anyone in the historic Christian faith.
John Nelson Darby of the Plymouth Brethren (circa A.D. 1830s) literally invented it, though others in the Plymouth Brethren sect certainly contributed to its formulation (e.g., A.N. Groves; B.W. Newton; W.H. Dorman; E. Cronin; and J.G. Bullett).
Some dispensationalists chafe at this, but the fact is dispensationalism is a direct product of the Plymouth Brethren movement in England in the early 19th century.
It isn't found in the New Testament; it isn't found in the Church fathers; it isn't found in the universal creeds of the historic Church; it isn't found in Augustine; it isn't found in any of the great Reformation creeds and statements of faith; it isn't found in Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Knox, Spurgeon, Dabney, Machen, well, I hope the reader gets the point.
I am not saying it was a minority view, or a hated view, or even considered a heretical view--it simply didn't exist until J.N Darby concocted it in the 1830s.
It didn't exist in any form in the United States until circa 1864; Darby graced the United States with his presence.
Darby so impressed Dr. James Brooks of the 16th and Walnut Avenue Presbyterian Church in St. Louis that Dr. Brooks is considered the "father of American dispensationalism."
One of Dr. Brooks' students was named C.I. Scofield. So, essentially, the historical beginnings may be rightly traced, literally, from JN Darby, to James Brooks, to C.I. Scofield, to Lewis Chafer and subsequently being churned out at Dallas Seminary, founded by Dr. Chafer.
What made it "take off," so to speak? During this circa of history, the American denomoniations were being heavily corrupted by liberalism, in the wake of Chuck Darwin's philosophical piece, Origins of Species (Darwin wasn't a scientist, but a failed divinity student--his Origins is one of the books that everyone talks about but never reads...it is not a work of science, but is simply the [largely borrowed...] musings of Darwin), and the cultural impact it had.
By 1923, liberalism and historic Christian teaching came to a real confrontation at Princeton Seminary (at one time one of the great defenders of the historic Christian faith).
The General Assembly in 1923 resulted in J. Gresham Machen and other scholars from Princeton breaking from the school and forming Westminster Theological Seminary, September 25, 1929. A truly great educational institution.
The Reformed scholars of the school defended historic Christian teaching against the anti-christian liberalism that was taking over much of the American church.
The works they published defended the fundamentals of the faith, such as the inspiration of Scripture, the Virgin birth of Christ, the bodily Resurrection, the divinity of Christ and the substitutionary atonement of Christ.
Those that held to historic Christian teaching were then labeled "fundamentalists" (it should be carefully noted that these "fundamentalists" should not be equated with or confused with the current dispensationalist fundamentalists, as they are strikingly different, whereas the so-called present-day fundamentalist is typified as being anti-intellectual, anti-historic, anti-creedal, which the great men that fought the liberals in the early 20th century were certainly not any of the above).
The liberalism of the day made such headway into the mainline denominations that they essentially ceased being Christian when an honest analysis is made of their doctrinal and creedal content; in our day, none of the mainline denominations may be rightly called Christian from a historic, New Testament perspective.
In this horrific state of affairs, came the Scofield Study Bible and the energetic preaching of C.I. Scofield. In response to the major denominations in the U.S. being corrupted by liberalism, the independent church movement began, and with noble purposes to be sure.
Essentially all of the leaders of the early independent church movement were dispensationalists, and the defacto Bible that was used was the Scofield Study Bible.
Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer founded Dallas Seminary in 1924, and while the mainline demonominations were jettisoning the Christian faith, this dispensationalist school was upholding historic doctrines such as the inspiration of Scripture, the deity of Christ, His miracles, the bodily Resurrection, et. al.
The person in the pew didn't want to hear that the Bible was "wrong," and that Jesus--if He ever existed--was just a nice man, deluded, but just a nice man, that miracles are "impossible," and that they were not only not in the image of God, they were simply a quirk, a biological oddity, a product of time and chance--in short, animals, of no more worth or real significance than a dog, or cow, or rat, or slug.
In that worldview, Mother Teresa and Adolf Hitler are ultimately the same, as ethics and morals are nothing but the subjective illusion of evolved animals, with the same reward--if anything, Hitler acted more "rationally consistent" with the modern worldview, as he fully believed in evolution and the survival of the fittest. ...
Dallas Seminary filled the void that was left by the abandoning of the Christian faith by the mainline denominations (and as a side note, the cults took advantage of this as their rise took place during the same time period)--Dallas Seminary produced scores of graduates, and these men planted churches all over the United States, Bible-believing churches, and those sickened by the liberalism of the mainline churches flocked to the new dispensational fundamental churches.
These churches did preach the Gospel and defend the faith, to their credit.
And here we are today...most conservative churches today are dispensationalist in orientation, and most church goers think it is *the* historic, Bible-believing view of eschatology and hermeneutics, which it simply is not.
Anyway, that is the historic background to dispensationalism and the Hal Lindsey brand "mark of the best" and the "Left Behind" series. "The Beast" of Revelation was most likely Caesar Nero. "Apocalypse Then" essentially.
Is there going to be another physical Temple rebuilt in Jerusalem? The New Testament clearly states that believers in Christ are the Temple of God; the final view of the physical (carnal) Temple of the Old Covenant nation of the Jews was foretold by Christ to be destroyed; it was, circa A.D. 70.
The kingdom was to be taken from the Jews and given to others; it was, and now the covenant people of God are those that have their faith in Jesus Christ, whether ethnically Jewish or Gentile. National Israel rejected her covenant with God, rejected her Messiah, and ultimately rejected God Himself.
There is no special significance to the modern secular state of "Israel," which is [a] utterly contemptous of Christ; [b] is overwhelming atheistic in belief; [c] ethnically, they are German, Polish, English, Romanian, Russian, Turkish, Kazaharian, etc....but biological, lineal descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Biologically doubtful, theological irrelevant as regards New Testament belief.
"The mark of the beast is a counterfeit for the seal of God's name on the saints (7:2-8; 14:1; Ezek, 9). The beast owns those who are marked, and they are his slaves.
Speculations about a visible mark miss the main point of the spiritual distinction between the two groups" (New Geneva Study Bible study notes for Rev. 13:16 Thomas Nelson, 1995), p. 2023."
Recommended Sites:
http://www.chalcedon.edu/report/97dec/Wilson_Judaism_Lite.html
http://www.reformed.org/eschaton/beast.html
Also Recommended:
Understanding Dispensationalism, by Vern S. Poythress (Zondervan Publishing House).
82 posted on 11/17/2001 7:15:29 PM EST by EthanNorth
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/572917/posts?page=82#82
Rutles4Ever: "she was saved by Christ before time, and set aside .."
M_PI: "Exactly. Just like the rest of his people are. [Romans 8:28-30; 9:11-13; Acts 13:48; Eph. 1:4-6 etc., etc.]"
Rutles4Ever: "We were not saved before time."
What do the above Scriptures mean, then? Quote them, then explain each in your own words, will you?
Viva il Papa!
Domestically, there isn't a Congressional bill this man doesn't like. He's the biggest spender since FDR. There isn't a shread of difference between him and the commie/socialist democrats.
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