Republican to Lead Immigration Revolt Against Bush

Reuters ^ | Jan 12, 2005 | Alan Elsner

[GOPXtreme20]

Republican to Lead Immigration Revolt Against Bush

By Alan Elsner

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A Republican member of the House of Representatives vowed on Wednesday to lead a revolt against President Bush (news - web sites)'s immigration reform proposals and predicted that up to 180 party members would support him.

Bush in an interview with the Washington Times published on Wednesday said he plans to force a debate in Congress this year on his proposal that would allow some illegal immigrants to obtain legal work permits in the United States.

Colorado Rep. Tom Tancredo, who heads the House Immigration Reform Caucus, said he was determined to block the legislation. The caucus, which had 71 members in the last Congress, argues for stronger action to stop illegal immigration and a reduction of legal migration.

"Why is this so important to the president?" Tancredo said. "Is it just the corporate interests who benefit from cheap labor? Do they have such a strong grip on our president so that he is actually willing to put our nation at risk, because open borders do put our nation at risk?

"Is it petulance, because we were able to stop it in the last Congress? Why is it so important to give amnesty to people who have broken the law?" Tancredo said.

"I'm willing to lead a fight against this and I would say there are at least 180 members of our Republican caucus who are willing at least to stop amnesty for illegal immigrants," he told Reuters in a telephone interview.

Bush has repeatedly said he views immigration reform as an important issue for his second term. In the Washington Times interview, he said it was near the top of his agenda.

"Look, whether or not you agree with the solution or not, we have a problem in America when you've got 8 million undocumented workers here," he said.

BUSH CONFIDENCE

Bush expressed confidence he could win over opponents, as he did in passing tax reform during his first term. "Initially out of the box, some people said, over my dead body would they pass tax relief ... If I listened to all that, I'd just quit, you know. But that's not the way I think."

But analysts agree that immigration reform could be much more divisive for Republicans since growing numbers of rank-and-file voters are becoming concerned at the continued influx of illegal immigrants across the Mexican border.

"No issue, not one, threatens to do more damage to the Republican coalition than immigration," said David Frum, a former White House speech writer in Bush's first term.

"There's no issue where the beliefs and interests of the party rank-and-file diverge more radically from the beliefs and interests of the party's leaders," he wrote in the National Review last month.

Bush insists he is not offering amnesty to illegal immigrants but Tancredo said that was a "manipulation of language, the kind of thing (former President) Bill Clinton would have done. There is an issue of integrity here and an issue of honesty," he said.

[Southack]

"Because they are meaningless and will do nothing to stop the flow of illegals across the border or catch on illegal alien of interest."

Not true. By registering 8+ million currently anonymous illegals, you'll remove those 8+ million from making illegal border crossings (they'll be making legal crossing at official checkpoints in the future simply because they have the paperwork to so do).

With that many fewer illegals making rogue border crossings, the apprehension of new illegals will be far more manageable.

Registration is the key. It will reduce the number of illegal border jumpers and it will remove the cloak of anonymity that current employers of illegals hide under.

[gubamyster]

In all fairness, Sabertooth did a fine job of explaining his position, but that wasn't my question to you. Sabertooth favors a brute force approach to an 8+ million man problem (larger than the German roundup circa 1938-1945).

If you read Sabertooth's plan he is advocating only rounding up about "a few hundred thousand of them." Personally I think it wouldn't take rounding up that many, but in either case it is a far cry from all 8+ (more like 15-20) million.

Why are you opposed to the very registration of illegals and their employers that would make this immigration problem manageable?

As I've stated before. I don't believe it will work. Currently there is no means of tracking the illegals, I don't believe we will be able to track the guest workers.

Currently, the borders are not closed, I don't believe they will be with a guest worker program. More illegals will come in, they will work for a lower wage than the guest workers, employers will hire them just as they currently hire illegals. Since the borders will not be secured, criminals &/or terrorists will still be able to get in. Do you think MS-13 members will register with a guest worker program.

Currently we do not deport illegals, I don't believe we will send guest workers home when their time is up, or they get fired from a job, or there is a downturn in the economy & they are otherwise not needed.

I'm repeating myself from earlier posts, but I don't see any incentive for registration. Currently there are laws on the books preventing the hiring of illegals, they go unenforced. I don't think there will be massive enforcement under a guest worker program. The employer will continue to hire the new wave of illegals rather than paying a minimum or union wage to a guest worker. The employer will continue to hire illegals rather than pay taxes, benefits, insurance to a guest worker who now may have legal recourse against the employer.

Once the guest worker is making a wage & receiving benefits comparitive to US citizens, why would the employer hire the guest worker? He can get an English speaker for the same price, or get an illegal for cheaper.

There will still be anchor babies under the guest worker program.

[FITZ]

And when construction slows down, just what are those 3,000 guys going to do then?

Just like the seasonal farm workers whose annual income might be $6000 --- all of it made in 3 months, sometimes $8 an hour while it lasted --- but there's always the housing subsidies and the foods stamps and WIC their girlfriends and her kids receive that get them through to the next bit of work they might get.

[Marine Inspector]

That's true, but the *criminal* fugitives you are referring to will be easier to deal with after 8+ million other illegal aliens are registered and no longer anonymous...for the simple reason that our law enforcement will have more resources left available due to no longer being overstretched by so many presently anonymous illegal immigrants.

Not true. Currently our law enforcement is not presently overstretched with the anonymous illegal immigrants, because they don't look for them. ICE is only interested in criminal aliens, not the anonymous run of the mill illegals.

As for the BP, registering 8 million illegals won't stop or even slow the flow across the border.

[Barlowmaker]

I care about the community. The warehouse guys, truck drivers, machinists, retailers, civil servants, bankers, insurance agents, engineers, retailers, architects, realtors, shopowners, waitstaff and bartenders, cabbies, musicians, lawyers, doctors and nurses. Teachers, policemen, firemen. When any agricultural, manufacturing or construction segment of a local economy is energized and made more economically efficient and profitable by an influx of newly arrived and beneficial external labor capital .... the entire community thrives. THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY THRIVES.

It has always been so. It is why immigration has always been one of America's unique competitive advantages.

[Marine Inspector]

you'll remove those 8+ million from making illegal border crossings (they'll be making legal crossing at official checkpoints in the future simply because they have the paperwork to so do).

So now, you've shifted the workload to a smaller group of officers and for everyone registered, there are 2 or 3 more ready to make the run across the border.

You’ve just made the situation worst.

[Southack]

Why are you opposed to the very registration of illegals and their employers that would make this immigration problem manageable?

"As I've stated before. I don't believe it will work. Currently there is no means of tracking the illegals, I don't believe we will be able to track the guest workers."

Doh! The whole *point* of getting them registered with the government, and of getting their employers registered, is so that they can finally be tracked and so that their employers can be audited for compliance (e.g. wage laws, workman's comp, immigration laws, etc.).

So saying that you oppose tracking them because we have no current way to track them exceeds the bizarre!

[OKIEDOC]

I agree with you.
Bush is wrong on this issue.
I am afraid that Hellery is going to use this to bash Republicans if we do get on the ball.
Go Tancredo.

[Marine Inspector]

It is why immigration has always been one of America's unique competitive advantages.

Once again, you have failed to make the distinction between illegal and legal,

In the old days, that statement was completely true, but over the past 2 1/2 decades that statement has become less and less true, as the illegal alien problem we have now is in no way comparable to the past.

Legal immigration has been and most likely always will be a good thing for the United States. Unfortunately, illegal immigration has not and never will be.

[Southack]

"So now, you've shifted the workload to a smaller group of officers and for everyone registered, there are 2 or 3 more ready to make the run across the border. You’ve just made the situation worst."

Nonsense. Registration reduces the number of illegal crossings. 8+ million who have to cross illegally today would, once registered, be crossing legally. That greatly reduces the number of illegal border jumpers that our existing personnel have to apprehend. That makes the situation better.

...And the 2 or 3 new illegals who *want* to jump the border for each legal one are going to find that their potential employers have now been ratted out by earlier illegals who now have those legal blue cards...so those employers of those legal and potential illegal aliens are now getting audited by federal agents...making hiring new illegals for said employers far more risky than back when they were anonymous in the old pre-registration days.

[gubamyster]

At that point, the law enforcement equation changes from seeking out anonymous fugitives to one of merely visiting tagged employers of illegals. The *scope* of the problem becomes vastly smaller and more manageable.

Right now Special Order 40 & other sanctuary zones prevent law enforcement from reporting illegals or coordinating with BICE when illegals are encountered in routine stops. It is not a matter of LE being overwhelmed, they could easily report the illegals. It is a matter of finger pointing and unwillingness. And then there is the bogus claim about how building a rapport with the illegals leads to better policing. I don't believe this will change under the guest worker program. What happens when an illegal, who is not a guest worker is picked up in a traffic stop? Catch & release? If LE agencies "don't want to scare" the illegals now, what is suddenly going to change after the guest worker program that will make it acceptable to detain, report & deport illegals?

[Barlowmaker]

Do I hear 25 million illegals? 25 million illegals?

25 million illegals here

Sold to Fitz, it's 25 million illegals!

[gubamyster]

Doh! The whole *point* of getting them registered with the government, and of getting their employers registered, is so that they can finally be tracked and so that their employers can be audited for compliance (e.g. wage laws, workman's comp, immigration laws, etc.).

Doh! We have 400K visa overstayers in the country now, that we cannot track. We had their visa & all other info, but the great system that is magically going to work for guest workers, lost them!! We don't know where they are! They're gone! This along with thousands more who overstay their visa everyday.

[Southack]

"As for the BP, registering 8 million illegals won't stop or even slow the flow across the border."

Both Tancredo and Bush's immigration plans do more than just register those illegals...those plans also register the employers of illegals.

Those 8+ million illegals *must* make illegal border crossing today to see their families back in their home countries, but once registered, they would be making *legal* border crossings at already established checkpoints...leaving far fewer illegals making illegal crossings...which means easier enforcement from our existing border agents against those new illegal jumpers.

Sure, overall border traffic under just those parameters would remain static, but most of the new traffic would be legal and monitored, with only a fraction of that number still comprised of illegals making new illegal border crossings after registration is effected.

Moreover, once the employers of illegals are registered under Tancredo and Bush's competing immigration plans, there will be far less incentive to make the jump...because employers will be faced with audits for wage, tax, worker's comp, and immigration compliance. The savings from lower immigrant labor rates will shrink...and that will likewise reduce the incentive to hire them.

[investigateworld]

That's good to hear, 'cause in Cali, they all file Work Comp claims, then boogie back to Mexico where the carriers can't send PI's to photograph them working. LOL But nobody answered how much this is going to cost to "enforce". MI any guess on the level of staff needed to enforce this "program"?

[Marine Inspector]

Registration reduces the number of illegal crossings

No it won't. It did not in the 80's and it won't now. In fact, registration increased the number of illegal alien crossing over the years. It's history and history repeats it self.

As for the people registered, you just shifted that work load onto an already overworked smaller group of officers.

The majority of illegal aliens work under the table, so there is no need for them to register. If they do register, they may be out of a job, as the employer won't want the hassles or cost that will accompany a registered alien. Add that to the fact that employers know ICE does not have the manpower to enforce any guest worker program and it would take many years for them to acquire the manpower to do so and Congress has a history of not funding such efforts, the employer knows he can hire illegals with impunity. Also, since this won’t stop illegals from entering the US, the employer still has a plethora of illegals to hire from.

[gubamyster]

Doh! The whole *point* of getting them registered with the government, and of getting their employers registered, is so that they can finally be tracked and so that their employers can be audited for compliance (e.g. wage laws, workman's comp, immigration laws, etc.).

Doh! We have SS cards, drivers licenses, and birth certificates to track people now, but the illegals buy fake ones at McArthur Park all day long. Are these the silver bullet documents & numbers that will be used to track the guest workers, or will the new National ID card be used? If it is, I'm sure it will be available at a Home Depot parking lot near you soon.

[rolling_stone]

..."Just round 'em up and deport, 'em; that simple, right?"...

No just enforce our current laws and they will go home by themselves without work or public benefits...fine a few big and small employers and the word will get out..but if you want to deport them, it would be just like operation wetback..yup simple.

All the Presidente has to do is announce that in 6 months all illegals still in the country will be apprehended and will be deported and prohibited from any future immigration...then let them apply for a "guest worker" program where the numbers are smaller and we have time to monitor and enforce it. Give employers a few months to try and find legal workers and let supply and demand take over wages before "guest worker" visas are issued.

We need to learn from history, all amnesty did is increase illegal immigration. All guest worker permits will do is give the worker a legal status, and unless enforced his family will find their way back here and eat up public benefits, anchor babies etc...it is far too difficult to vet and issue 1 million permits much less more than that. Fraud will be rampant by employers, who is going to enforce it? Lawsuits will follow any benefit given to some, as happened in 1986...

http://www.theamericanresistance.com/articles/art2004jan26.html

http://www.numbersusa.com/interests/amnesty.html

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1045921/posts

[Southack]

"If LE agencies "don't want to scare" the illegals now, what is suddenly going to change after the guest worker program that will make it acceptable to detain, report & deport illegals?"

Post registration, the focus will move to auditing the employers of illegals for compliance. Compliance with tax laws (read: IRS). Compliance with wage laws (e.g. unions enforcing union scale, bleeding heart liberals enforcing minimum wages). Compliance with workman's comp (e.g. lawyers and insurance sharks). Compliance with immigration laws on hiring (e.g. INS).

By rewarding illegal aliens to register themselves and their employers, you suddenly give law enforcement personnel some amazing tools with which to pressure the businesses that hire illegals.

That's a change from the current situation.

Why you would oppose such registration in favor that such businesses and illegal workers remain anonymous instead boggles my mind, however.

[Marine Inspector]

so those employers of those legal and potential illegal aliens are now getting audited by federal agents

That’s a pipe dream that will never happen. As a matter of fact, that's exactly what Congress said would happen in the 80's and in 1996. It still isn’t happening and it won't happen under these plans.