Posted on 01/11/2005 11:30:36 AM PST by missyme
Actor Mel Gibson held a secret meeting with one of the famous visionaries of Fatima, Sister Lucia of Portugal. Sister Lucia, now 98 years of age, is a cloistered nun who as a child saw and spoke with the Virgin Mary in Fatima, Portugal in 1917.
Her visions and those of her two childhood friends, both since passed away, were both prophetic and apocalyptic. The Catholic Church accepted the visions as authentic.
Firstly, the "Creator," God, always "was." His Son was "always" as well borne in human form of the "Virgin" Mary (who was not sinless).
Secondly, "the greatest human" was easily Jesus Christ.
The word "greatest" in the context of "importance" could arguably be Mary...Adam...Abraham...Moses...Noah...Paul...etal...
Don't give me the ole "ass u me" line. That is so old!
I (as well as other Freepers) gave an explanation about Mary's Assumption into Heaven, which is what we Catholics commonly call the event that dealt with the end of Mary's earthly life.
It has nothing to do with the Reformation. The apostles couldn't find her body to bury. It was talked about LONG before the Reformation even happened.
Catholics do not rely on the Scripture alone, or haven't you understood that yet?
The sort of intellectual lack of sophistication that leads to doggerel like that I would associate with the mind of an adolescent. Is that what you are?
Doggerel Crudely or irregularly fashioned verse, often of a humorous or burlesque nature.
The Serpent can easily materialize into whomever he wants in order to deceive. When hearts are open without discernment, without armor of the Word of God, he gains a foothold.
The rest of your post is quite correct.
These days, people would more readily believe that Mary was abducted by an alien spaceship than that she was assumed to Heaven from Earth by God, the maker of Heaven and Earth.
Most of what you posted is wrong, but this is sort of right.
Jesus is very, very special. Saints have been known to be seen in apparitions -- Saint Rita [before she was a saint] is a prime example. She was lead into a convent by three saints appearing to her. She was allowed to enter the convent after this night, as the saints unlocked the doors to the convent and the chapel. But it was not Jesus who appeared but three saints that were special to Saint Rita.
However, apparitions of Jesus are extra-ordinarily rare.
Apparitions of the Mother of God are more common -- because Jesus allows His mother to be a messenger.
Finally, how do you explain the 4 Jesuits that got nuked at Hiroshima?
They explained why they survived, but science to this day cannot.
The three children of Fatima predicted in advance that the miracle would occur on October 13th, 1917. And it did.
The only problem was the newspapers -- run by those who did not believe in God -- promised to report the story. They knew the miracle would not occur.
Mary is important -- starting with Miracle at Cana -- which started Jesus in His public life.
I understand it completely.
There are others though who may not be aware that the authority of "Man" in some case is allowed to supercede that of the Word of God.
Divide and conquer, people, that's how the enemy works and that's what I'm seeing here on this thread.
To simplify, as long as you believe in Jesus as the son of God, was born of a virgin and was resurrected physically, and trust that He is your only way to salvation and only He alone can forgive your sins, the rest we can sort out in eternity....there will be plenty of time. ;o)
>>I always believed that he INTENDED to share his glory with US in the end ....<<
With all due respect, God shares His glory with no one, as the Bible states. Mary was a child of Adam, and therefore a sinner, as we all are (see Romans chapters 1-5).
She needed redemption, as we all do, and there was only one Sinless One, Jesus Christ. The Bible also says there is only one intermediary between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.
In my zeal, I missed the cite. Sorry.
Also, I cannot answer your question nor can I interpret the meaning of the quotation you provided.
My source for the Virgin's messages is "MEDJUGORJE the Message" by Wayne Weible, a Protestant journalist who investigated the Medjugorje event. This book was given to me by a very devout Catholic who went on a Pilgrimage to Medjugorje. The Virgin Mary's last message was the only message I read and it caused me to weep. The message was on the last page of the book. I was so over-taken by the message, and my spontaneous response to it, I never read the book. (I have a habit of looking at the last page of a book before I read it.)
I am essentially an agnostic, in the sense of not being attached to any church nor to orthodoxy. But, I believe in and attempt to fully practice Christian humanism. And, it ain't easy to do so at times.
Well, my error. I am well aware that the Old Testament was already in existence. As well as being aware of your other points. What I should have said was that the Bible, as we know it did not exist. And the OT at that time was NOT the Bible. And, yes, as I stated the scriptures were there & in use but in the end it was the Church that assembled the cannon. By the way, what additions & deletions were made to the Septaugint?
Is an agnostic just not belonging to a church? I always wondered what that meant. lol So what is a gnostic? Sorry for sounding so ignorant, but I am ignorant to what these words mean. :o)
I'm sure OC can handle this on his/her own, but if you believe that God is omniscient, and nothing is a surprise to Him, then the Fall would not be a surprise to Him, and He knew we would need a Savior, and He devised a Way by means of preserving one soul to bring that Savior into our world. He could do all that, couldn't He? If you agree, then maybe you can understand how it is that we Catholics understand Mary. She was preserved (or pre-saved) from sin so that she could bear Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ!
St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened, upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven.
I originally and purposely responded to your post for good reason:
"Whether it's the GOOD message or the serious prophecy - don't discredit the messenger."
As an agnostic, you may or may not believe in the metaphysical spiritual world.
IF you do, there are the entities of God (and His Angels), and Satan (and His Angels [Demons]).
There is a spiritual war waged at this very moment. At stake is the eternal human soul. Job #1 of Satan is to "deceive the elect" on earth as prophesied in the Bible and create a chasm of doubt between the deity of Jesus Christ, the Savior and man.
With respect to your post, when part or any of such message from "Our Lady" is a lie, then ALL of it is a lie. And that's what makes it necessary to "discredit" it.
I admire you hunger for spiritual guidance, and pray that God gives you wisdom and strength to prevail in His truth.
"The salvation Christ provided would not have been possible without Mary"
OC: Yes.
Using that logic, Pontious Pilate (or whoever would eventually sentence Jesus to death) must also be free from original sin because without him, Christ would not have been sacrificed on the cross. I believe everything is possible through Christ. He does not need human assistance to accomplish his plan. Not even Mary's.
OC: Ah, but he did need Mary's didn't he, its undeniable. As far as Pilate goes, he was not involved in the incarnation of Jesus, only the death of Jesus. Evil and sin caused Jesus' death, Pilate was only Satan's pawn. He could've set Jesus free. In one of the accounts he tried to several times, eventually washing his hands of the affair. Pilate was not free from original sin.
Could you provide some support for your statement that God cannot coexist with sin/evil. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. I'm just wondering how you support that statement.
OC: I don't have this source off the top of my head. I'll ping this and get back to you.
You say Mary doesn't need redemption, but she does need salvation. Salvation implies she is being saved. What is she being saved from?
OC: Salvation from the standpoint of saved from this world of evil/sin not her personal sin. Heaven wasn't opened for anyone prior to Jesus' Resurrection.
Finally, you assume A LOT when you assume I haven't already studied Early Church Fathers and Mary from a Catholic point of view. I have done both very intensely. I am continuing to do so right now by asking you specific questions about your understanding of the role of Mary.
OC: No offense intended. I meant this in the most charitable way. I am a novice apologist. Allow me to suggest listeing to Catholic Answers on your local Catholic radio station or on EWTN.com. Their broadcast frequencies and a great resource for you (and me) is their website www.catholic.com.
I'll find out about the coexist question above.
Peace -
That's exactly what Satan does when he deceives the elect with lies masquerading as the truth.
The Serpent would like nothing more than to have folks pray NOT to the Son of God for "all things," but anything or anyone else.
My friend:
What amazes me is that you are so quick to condemn that which you have not studied and do not understand. No part of any message by Mary conflicts with the words of Christ. You keep pushing the idea that Mary "PROMISES SALVATION". So What!! When you have properly prepared your soul to face eternity and have committed your life to a devotion (Such as a Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary) which leads to Christ, this promise stands firms. Mary has never said that she forgives sins. Your have no understanding whatsoever of what you speak but you continue to condemn. Study and learn then post. Otherwise, you drive a wedge where one should not be.
I would agree that the Catholic Church assembled the cannon. But too often that process is twisted into the statement "The Catholic Church created the Bible". I believe "assembled" is a much better word than "created", as most non-secular Biblical scholars believe God is responsible for the creation for the books contained in the Bible.
With regard to the Septaugint, the books of Esdras, the Prayer of Manasseh and 3 and 4 Maccabees are not included in today's Catholic Bible, and none of the deuterocanonical books existed in the original Hebrew "Bible". And some books that were considering separate in the Septaugint (like Bel and the Dragon) were melded into other books in the Catholic Bible.
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