Abbas: There will be no peace until Israel tears down separation fence

Reuters/Ha'artez ^ | 29 December 2004 | Reuters

[conservlib]

Now that I found at least one person in this country who see things the right way, the next step is to get our leaders, including Bush to understand the whole picture.

Bush, as a youngster grew up in affluent family, and when he was exposed to Saudis they where diplomats, who gave fancy embassy parties in Washington. They never allowed the issue of fairness and reciprocation of treatment to minority citizens. At this point he must remove his rose colored glasses, and started to realize that barbaric attitude of Islam, and Muslims to their minority citizens is a prelude to the way they treat us, and plan to deal with the entire West.

Bush, and the rest of the Western leaders, and Western media must confront that issue heads on. No beating around the bush. You know our media can get extensive coverage of one story 24X7; except, they are covering the wrong stories. The amount of ink, and hours of pundits commentators, and public sympathy/emotion spent on a stupid trivial issue as SCOTT PETERSON could have been spent explaining to the stupid Joe-six-packs that they are, and their nation is "THE BITCH" in the Saudi/American relationship. I have been on this forum for years, and have never seen this expression mentioned by one single red blooded, chest beating American, except me. For some reason our citizens think that these towel heads are entitled to screw them? How stupid is that?

Once we bring the concept of fairness, and reciprocation out in the open, and pushed the empty headed Americans to demanded (because they should not accept being the bitch in any relationship), then we will have the public demanding action from our government, and the world will have been exposed to the discussion of fairness. It would be very difficult for other countries, or even our Muslim citizens to reject the concept of FAIRNESS. Citizens, and other nations who reject fairness would be committing public relation suicide. It would like a head of state coming on TV and saying I am for raping children! How much sympathy can one get with his opposition to fairness/equality/reciprocation/mutual respect?

[Fred Nerks]

I think I will be reading what you wrote several times. There is so much truth in all you say. I am reminded of the friendship between Prince Charles and such people as the Sultan of Brunei...the elite do travel in a rarefied atmosphere, untouched, untroubled by our concerns. Not for them, questions of ethics nor morality. All they seem to see is great wealth and commerce. It's difficult to imagine even GWB thinking too deeply about islam and its history, whilst entertaining a Saudi Prince. The area of diplomacy, the actions of those who call themselves politicians and diplomats seem to fly in the face of common sense...fairy tales with caviar and champagne perhaps?
All of which you write I believe, must come from us. From 'below' and find its way to the top. These people are our representatives, nothing more. Our demands, our disapproval should be shouted loud and clear. How can we expect our government, our representatives to reflect our attitude whilst almost half of the citizens are ignorant of the truth - that islam has openly declared its intentions of world domination, and did so from the time of its inception, 1400 years ago?
Personally, I am not angered by those who convert to islam, at least they are doing what pleases them (for the time being) what angers me are the apologists, the many who believe we are at fault, that through being who and what we are, we have brought this state of war upon ourselves. The coward's cry, the victim mentality - 'we must have done something to bring this upon ourselves, perhaps we deserve it.'
However, in all fairness to GWB, although he says little, what he does say is unmistakable. I have saved most of his speeches, and when one reads them again, the message is clear. Not as powerful as Churchill perhaps, not 'we will fight them on the beaches and in the air...' but I do think the terrorists understand the message.
Ultimately, your demand for FAIRNESS is the best solution I have heard. It's probably the most powerful argument one can put forth to islam. Puts an end to a lot of quibbling, doesn't it? And cannot be called provocative!

[Fred Nerks]

after-thought...tell me, who shall enforce our demand for fairness? The UN? (choke.)

[Windcatcher]

Abbas can go pound sand...as far as I'm concerned, a wall doesn't go far enough. Israel needs to take a page from West Germany and go full-blown DMZ, barbed wire, etc., the whole nine yards. They need to exert complete control over all border crossings into the country, and if some pointy-headed nimrod fires a rocket across the border the Israelis need to implement a two-minute response capability along the entire border. Then there can be peace.

[SeenTheLight]

Best case scenario: Abbas gets assassinated by Hamas/Islamic Jihad and the other terrorist scum, they take over, Israel has an excuse (not that it doesn't already) to turn the "Palestinian state" into a parking lot.

[conservlib]

OK, I have an additional idea. Israel, is a democracy, and its policy is to award the Israeli citizenship to any "JEW" who wants to reside in it, on demand. If you are a Christian, or a Muslim, you are not going to be accepted, by law! Now the same ACLU of this country will never argue that this Israeli policy is discriminatory. Actually, I don't think it is discriminatory either. The reason being is Israel wants to protect its identity as a "JEWISH" state. Accordingly, the rest of the world deal with it, and look the other way as far as pointing out the discrimination against Christians and Muslims by this Israeli law. Now why is it possible for a Jewish state to work hard to protect its identity from the infiltration of Muslims, and ALSO it is alright for a Muslim states as Saudi Arabia to protect its identity as a pure Muslim country (without one single church), and IT IS NOT ALRIGHT FOR THE USA, AND THE REST OF THE WEST TO PROTECT THEIR "CHRISTIAN" HERITAGE AGAINST THE IFILTRATION OF MUSLIMS? Please reflect on this point, and explain how the stupid liberals can defend such stupidity. The only explanation for me is that our people are happy to accept the bitch role in this American/Saudi relationship.

That can be stopped if our media, and churches will talk about this one subject 24X7 until all of us become upset not to be the BITCH to anybody.

[Fred Nerks]

I have my doubts about what you wrote about the Jewish State, don't they have around a million arab/israeli citizens and two members of the Kneset are arabs...I seem to recall that Herzl, who was instrumental in the drafting of the Israeli constitution, wrote that document along 'socialist' principles...shoot me if I'm wrong, more research required.

The argument about 'zionism' stems from the original rejection of a pure Jewish-only State...I think...but what a great idea that might have been. During correspondence with Jewish friends, the subject has often come up how much Arab votes count to certain political parties in Israel. The Left never knew a terrorist it didn't love...?

IMO the only way we can protect our Christian heritage in the West is to call islam what it is - it's not a religion, it's a CULT...and its roots are in Saudi Arabia, the original home of the parasitic, nomadic barbarians that gave it birth.

[conservlib]

"to call islam what it is - it's not a religion, it's a CULT...and its roots are in Saudi Arabia, the original home of the parasitic, nomadic barbarians that gave it birth." <>I agree. On the other hand, about Israel, yes, it has Arabs Muslims, and Arab Christians population, and representative, but that was not my point, my point that any new immigrant, who is a Jew can become an Israeli citizen overnight, while immigrants who are not Jews cannot. The reason as I explained before is simply Israel can get overrun with Muslims if they opened their immigration doors to "any one" like we do.

[krb]

[anotherview]

IMO the only way we can protect our Christian heritage in the West is to call islam what it is - it's not a religion, it's a CULT...and its roots are in Saudi Arabia, the original home of the parasitic, nomadic barbarians that gave it birth.

Perhaps if I, as a Jew, called Christianity a cult you would be offended. If so I believe it would be with good reason. Islam is a religion that has over one billion adherents. It is not monolithic any more than Christianity or Judaism are and different Islamic sects have some very different beliefs. Many, many Muslims find terrorism/violence as abhorrent as you or I do. I don't think it's fair or accurate to call one of the world's major religions a cult.

don't they have around a million arab/israeli citizens

We have about 1.3 million Israeli Arab citizens, the overwhelming majority of which are Muslims. Most live in peace with us. Many volunteer to serve in the IDF. There was a recent thread about Beduin IDF soldiers who were killed and they were viewed as heroes every bit as much as any other soldiers who die defending Israel. Beduins IDF soldiers are our best trackers.

two members of the Kneset are arabs

Actually Arab parties currently hold eight seats in the Knesset. There are actually some additional Knesset members , perhaps two or three, who are also Arabs but are members of our mainstream Zionist parties. Prime Minister Sharon had an Arab MK from Labor in his first cabinet.

who was instrumental in the drafting of the Israeli constitution

Israel does NOT have a formal constitution at all. Therefore nobody could have drafted one. We do have what is called the Basic Law, but that can be changed by a simple majority vote in the Knesset and often is. In making decisions our courts often site the American Consititution, BTW.

shoot me if I'm wrong,

I'd rather not since you seem very willing to research and learn more and seem to be a friend of Israel. :)

the original rejection of a pure Jewish-only State...I think...but what a great idea that might have been.

I don't think that would have been a good idea. That would have meant expelling our Muslim, Christian, Bahai, etc... citizens, many of whom are our neighbors and friends.

the subject has often come up how much Arab votes count to certain political parties in Israel.

One Arab vote counts exactly as much as one Jewish vote. There are just a whole lot more Jews than Arabs. Candidates from Labor and Likud have campaigned in Arab and mixed communities in every recent election. Some even campaigned in Arabic when addressing the Arab community. Arabic is one of our two official languages.

IMO the only way we can protect our Christian heritage in the West is to call islam what it is - it's not a religion,

I don't think that sort of misstatement is at all necessary, nor do I believe all forms of Islam are antithetical to Christianity. Certainly radical Islam is antithetical to anyone who isn't Muslim and I believe it is those people whom we must reserve our ire for.

and its roots are in Saudi Arabia

All Semetic peoples' roots are on the Arabian peninsula if you go back far enough. Abraham came from Ur in what is now Iraq but his ancestors came from Arabia.

the original home of the parasitic, nomadic barbarians that gave it birth.

I believe you write in Arabic numerals. Perhaps you should abandon them and go back to Roman numerals. Would you also like to throw out the mathematics that came from the Arab world? How about some of their very fine cuisine that is the basis of Israeli cuisine? Their literature?

The Arab world has contributed a whole lot to science, philosophy, mathematics, literature, etc... over the century. I suspect your objections aren't to Arabs. They are to the fanatical Wahabi Islam practiced by the Saudis and to their government. If so I share your objections.

[anotherview]

Wow... a whole lot of misinformation about Israel here... As one of the resident Israeli Freepers, albeit an American-born one, allow me to make a few corrections please.

OK, I have an additional idea. Israel, is a democracy, and its policy is to award the Israeli citizenship to any "JEW" who wants to reside in it, on demand.

What does the word Jew mean? Most people don't realize the are two meanings. First, it can mean a member of the Jewish religion. Second, it is short for Judean, meaning someone from Judea, in what is now Israel. Historically it meant both a nationality and a religion.

Jews are from Israel in the way Frenchmen are from France or an Irishman is from Ireland. Yes, we have a Law of Return that allows Jews to claim Israeli citizenship. Ireland has a law that allows anyone who can prove Irish ancestry (within limits: great granparents, I think) to live in Ireland and gain Irish citizenship. Why is Israeli law any more onerous that Irish law?

If you are a Christian, or a Muslim, you are not going to be accepted, by law!

Not so. Palestinian Arabs for many years were allowed to return if doing so would reunite families. There are certainly conditions under which Christians can immigrate to Israel. I saw an article recently that showed that while our Christian population is small roughly 23,000 Christians are recent immigrants. The difference is that Christians who are not from Israel do not automatically qualify for citizenship nor are given any particlularly favorable treatment. How is this different from any other country's immigration laws? Germany and Australia, for example, restrict Jewish immigration and nobody is condemning or criticizing them.

Now the same ACLU of this country will never argue that this Israeli policy is discriminatory.

Considering they are the *American* Civil Liberties Union and concern themselves with American, not Israeli, law that would seem to be a given.

Now why is it possible for a Jewish state to work hard to protect its identity from the infiltration of Muslims

Or a European state, for that matter? The Netherlands are seriously considering such a change to immigration law. Nothing wrong with it.

and ALSO it is alright for a Muslim states as Saudi Arabia to protect its identity as a pure Muslim country

I agree, it is perfectly fine. It's their country.

IT IS NOT ALRIGHT FOR THE USA, AND THE REST OF THE WEST TO PROTECT THEIR "CHRISTIAN" HERITAGE AGAINST THE IFILTRATION OF MUSLIMS?

I think it's perfectly OK. Anti-discrimination laws apply to the citizens of a given country. American laws do not apply to Israelis nor to anyone else outside the U.S. If Islam is seen as a threat then it should be OK to exclude Muslims.

I, personally, don't think America's Muslim minority is a threat. The problem with new potential immigrants is sorting out the ones who truly want to come to the U.S. legally to enjoy the freedom and opportunity the country offers and can contribute to American society in a positive way and those who are coming for nefarious purposes. I don't know how to do that and until a foolproof method is de vised discriminating against Muslims in immigration policy during a war against radical Islam makes perfect sense.

Was it discrimination to exclude Japanese or Germans from immigrating to the U.S. during WWII?

[conservlib]

You totally took my comments the wrong way. My point was that we need to protect the US from getting overrun by Muslims. As I continued to give example of the Saudi building thousands of mosques, while denying the west building one single church. I have had numerous posts on this thread that explains clearly my points, and you came from left field defending Israel as if I was offending Israel! Shame on you. I was even saying that I do approve of Israel selective preferential treatment BECAUSE IT NEEDS TO KEEP ISRAEL AS A JEWISH STATE.

[Fred Nerks]

Israel's Experience in Ancient Egypt:
http://www.specialtyinterests.net/ipuwer.html

Read The Hyksos.

Thanks for the time and effort you have taken to provide the information in connection with Israel. My objections are to any fundamental interpretation of the mohammadan creed. The 'prophet' lived 1400 years ago and every 'revelation' he 'received' was a self-serving edict, yet every muslim is required to emulate the actions of the vile creature they call 'divine and sinless'.

If you click Fred Nerks on my tagline, you will be able to link to a pdf download on My Page to a biography of the 'prophet' writted in 1913. The book provides ample sources from both ancient arabic and Greek.

I happen to believe that no one can understand what islam really is, unless they know the truth about the life of the man the arabs maintain gave birth to their 'religion'.

[Neocon Shavuz]

Yes. Do you feel better?

[Slings and Arrows]

The Angel of Grammar has departed in peace.

[Neocon Shavuz]

...and ignorant peasants can come back to actual issues. Thanks for departing.

[Slings and Arrows]

You're cute when you're mad.

[SunkenCiv]

Qurei: Fight Has Begun for Jerusalem
PA to intensify activity relating to Jerusalem
IMRA | 8-28-05
Posted on 08/29/2005 2:40:52 PM PDT by SJackson
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1472999/posts