FYI: Zogby Bros. on Charlie Rose 12/28/2004 (know thy enemy alert)

http://www.charlierose.com ^ | 12/28/2004 | Charlierose.com

[longtermmemmory]

Both Zogby Brothers are on the Charlie Rose show.

It keeps to its leftist tilt and New England type ignorencia intelectualism.

Hight points.

Convservatives in the USA are hijacked by the evenagelicals who are the equal to the taliban types.

Arafat was right to reject the peace plan.

Bush won just because of the war.

[LdSentinal]

JOKE OF THE YEAR

________________

Released: November 02, 2004
Our Call
Zogby International’s 2004 Predictions
(as of Nov. 2, 2004 5:00pm EST)

2004 Presidential Election

Electoral Votes:

Bush
213

Kerry
311

Too Close To Call
Nevada (5)

Too Close To Call
Colorado (9)

[beckett]

Zogby started off by making excuses for why he called the race for Kerry prior to election day. He got sleazier and sleazier as he went on until finally I switched it off.

The Zogby name, once respected, even pre-eminent, among pollsters, is now worthless.

[KwasiOwusu]

"The Zogby name, once respected, even pre-eminent, among pollsters, is now worthless."


Once respected?
I have never had any respect for that rabid piece of vermin.
He was lucky once in 2002.. BY MISTAKE.
Every broken down clock is right twice a day.
Zogby has always been synonymous with propaganda, lies, disinformation, viciousness, suport for Islamic extremism, arrogace and stupidity.
Nothing to respect in any of that.

[KwasiOwusu]

"He was lucky once in 2002.. BY MISTAKE"

Should read:

"He was lucky once in 2000.. BY MISTAKE"

[beckett]

Once respected?

I first heard of Zogby somewhere around 1993-1994 when his record itself indicated he was the most accurate poller around. By that time his company had already been around quite some time, I believe. In those days he was a favorite on the right because he was calling our races accurately. Your understanding that he has always been "synonymous with propaganda etc." is incorrect. His swing to the left coincided with the rise in prominence of his company and, I would guess, with his decision to use that prominence to openly support Arab-American causes (he's Arab-American himself). In the beginning he did not operate as he's operating today.

[KwasiOwusu]

"Your understanding that he has always been "synonymous with propaganda etc." is incorrect. "

I have known Zogby since 2001.
He has always been arrogant, stupid, full of hate, and big liar since I have known him.
As for his polls, they are garbage.
His polls are simply anti-Bush, anti-Republican Party, pro-Islamic terrorist propaganda disguised as "polls".
Zogby's conman tricks were finally exposed for all to see in the 2004 elections, after an equally shameful performance in the 2002 where he predicted a "Democratic Party landslide".
As for Zogby the Arab clown being the most accurate pollster around at some time, I don't believe that is the case at all.
It has already been proved in several threads on this board that even in 2000, when Zogby kept boasting that he was the most accurate, he in fact was only the THIRD most accurate in only the final polls in the 2000 presidential elections.
LIke I said before, even a broken down clock is right twice a day. Same thing with Zogby.
I really doubt is Zogby was ever the most accurate at anything.

[Mark Felton]

It's become popular to think of Jefferson as a deist. he was not. Jefferson never called himself a Deist. he called himself a Christian.

Unlike a Deist he believed in a system of rewards and punishment after life. He believed in an eternal, omnipresent God.

Jefferson stated things that would make George W Bush look like a heathen and be strung up by the media as a Jesus Freak.

Jefferson wrote a book specifically to be used to teach the Indians about Christ. Jefferson proclaimed his wish that the entire world become Christian.

Imagine if GW had said such things.

Learn from the words of Jefferson himself;

    Jefferson Quotes:

"My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions.  To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus Himself. I am Christian in the only sense He wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others..."
                             -- Thomas Jefferson, April 21 1803 to Benjamin Rush

"A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am real Christian; that is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
                             -- Thomas Jefferson, Jan 9, 1816 letter to Charles Thomson. 

"I hold the precepts of Jesus as delivered by Himself, to be the most pure, benevolent and sublime which have ever been preached to men..." 
                            -- Thomas Jefferson, Nov 4, 1820 letter to Jared Sparks

"No one sees with greater pleasure than myself  the progress of reason and its advance towards rational Christianity, and my opinion is that if nothing had ever been added to what flowed from His lips, the whole world would at this day been Christian.... Had there never been a commentor there never would have been an infidel.  I have little doubt that the whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator, and, I hope, to the pure doctrines of Jesus also." 
                            -- Thomas Jefferson,  Library of American Literature, Vol III pp 283-284 Stephen Abbot Northrop

"Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to me  so pure as that of Jesus."                             -- Thomas Jefferson, Writings, Vol XIII pg 377


"Had the doctrines of Jesus always been preached always as pure as they came from His lips the whole civilized world would now have been Christians."
                            -- Thomas Jefferson. Tyron Edwards New Dictionary of Thoughts- A Cyclopaedia of Quotations (1852) p.91

"I have always said, I always will say, that the studious perusal of the sacred volume will make better citizens, better fathers, and better husbands."
                            -- Thomas Jefferson. Tyron Edwards New Dictionary of Thoughts- A Cyclopaedia of Quotations (1852) p.46

1. The doctrines of Jesus are simple and tend to the happiness of man.
2. There is only One God and He is all perfect.
3. There is a future state of rewards and punishment.
4. To love God with all the heart and thy neighbor as thyself is the sum of all.
   

-- Thomas Jefferson, Life of Jefferson, by Stephen Abbot Northropp pp252-253

"I am for freedom of Religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendency of one sect over another..."
                            -- Thomas Jefferson, Catalog of the Library of T.J. Voll II Catherine Millard

"The Christian Religion, when divested of the rags in which they [the clergy] have enveloped it, and brought to the original purity and simplicity to its benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and the freest expansion of the human mind."
                             -- Thomas Jefferson, Mar 23rd, 1801 letter to Moses Robinson



Jeffersons "Bible"

The scholars at the Univ of Virginia have this to say;

"The so-called Jefferson Bible, more accurately "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth," is now the property of the United States National Museum at Washington, having been obtained by purchase in 1895."

"His original idea was to have the life and teachings of the Saviour, told in similar excerpts, prepared for the Indians, thinking this simple form would suit them best."

"it is interesting to note the title of the first compilation, which reads as follows:"THE PHILOSOPHY OF JESUS OF NAZARETH"

"Extracted from the account of his life and doctrines as given by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Being an abridgment of the New Testament for the use of the Indians, unembarrassed with matters of fact or faith beyond the level of their comprehensions."

Source: Univ of Virginia

The following are from a history book called "America's God and Country" by W. Federer, 1994.

        "While in Philedelphia, Thomas Jefferson attended Christ Church."

        "In Virginia Jefferson attended Bruton Parish Church (Episcopalian) in Williamsburg."

        "His own bible a well worn, four-volume set, held preeminence in his personal library."

        "In establishing the University of Virginia, Thomas Jefferson not only encouraged the teaching of religion, but set aside a                 place inside the rotunda for chapel services"

[Mark Felton]

It's become popular to think of Jefferson as a deist. he was not. Jefferson never called himself a Deist. he called himself a Christian.

Unlike a Deist he believed in a system of rewards and punishment after life. He believed in an eternal, omnipresent God.

Jefferson stated things that would make George W Bush look like a heathen and be strung up by the media as a Jesus Freak.

Jefferson wrote a book specifically to be used to teach the Indians about Christ. Jefferson proclaimed his wish that the entire world become Christian.

Imagine if GW had said such things.

Learn from the words of Jefferson himself;

    Jefferson Quotes:

"My views...are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions.  To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus Himself. I am Christian in the only sense He wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others..."
                             -- Thomas Jefferson, April 21 1803 to Benjamin Rush

"A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am real Christian; that is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
                             -- Thomas Jefferson, Jan 9, 1816 letter to Charles Thomson. 

"I hold the precepts of Jesus as delivered by Himself, to be the most pure, benevolent and sublime which have ever been preached to men..." 
                            -- Thomas Jefferson, Nov 4, 1820 letter to Jared Sparks

"No one sees with greater pleasure than myself  the progress of reason and its advance towards rational Christianity, and my opinion is that if nothing had ever been added to what flowed from His lips, the whole world would at this day been Christian.... Had there never been a commentor there never would have been an infidel.  I have little doubt that the whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator, and, I hope, to the pure doctrines of Jesus also." 
                            -- Thomas Jefferson,  Library of American Literature, Vol III pp 283-284 Stephen Abbot Northrop

"Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to me  so pure as that of Jesus."                             -- Thomas Jefferson, Writings, Vol XIII pg 377


"Had the doctrines of Jesus always been preached always as pure as they came from His lips the whole civilized world would now have been Christians."
                            -- Thomas Jefferson. Tyron Edwards New Dictionary of Thoughts- A Cyclopaedia of Quotations (1852) p.91

"I have always said, I always will say, that the studious perusal of the sacred volume will make better citizens, better fathers, and better husbands."
                            -- Thomas Jefferson. Tyron Edwards New Dictionary of Thoughts- A Cyclopaedia of Quotations (1852) p.46

1. The doctrines of Jesus are simple and tend to the happiness of man.
2. There is only One God and He is all perfect.
3. There is a future state of rewards and punishment.
4. To love God with all the heart and thy neighbor as thyself is the sum of all.
   

-- Thomas Jefferson, Life of Jefferson, by Stephen Abbot Northropp pp252-253

"I am for freedom of Religion, and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendency of one sect over another..."
                            -- Thomas Jefferson, Catalog of the Library of T.J. Voll II Catherine Millard

"The Christian Religion, when divested of the rags in which they [the clergy] have enveloped it, and brought to the original purity and simplicity to its benevolent institutor, is a religion of all others most friendly to liberty, science, and the freest expansion of the human mind."
                             -- Thomas Jefferson, Mar 23rd, 1801 letter to Moses Robinson



Jeffersons "Bible"

The scholars at the Univ of Virginia have this to say;

"The so-called Jefferson Bible, more accurately "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth," is now the property of the United States National Museum at Washington, having been obtained by purchase in 1895."

"His original idea was to have the life and teachings of the Saviour, told in similar excerpts, prepared for the Indians, thinking this simple form would suit them best."

"it is interesting to note the title of the first compilation, which reads as follows:"THE PHILOSOPHY OF JESUS OF NAZARETH"

"Extracted from the account of his life and doctrines as given by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Being an abridgment of the New Testament for the use of the Indians, unembarrassed with matters of fact or faith beyond the level of their comprehensions."

Source: Univ of Virginia

The following are from a history book called "America's God and Country" by W. Federer, 1994.

        "While in Philedelphia, Thomas Jefferson attended Christ Church."

        "In Virginia Jefferson attended Bruton Parish Church (Episcopalian) in Williamsburg."

        "His own bible a well worn, four-volume set, held preeminence in his personal library."

        "In establishing the University of Virginia, Thomas Jefferson not only encouraged the teaching of religion, but set aside a                 place inside the rotunda for chapel services"

[Mark Felton]

Jefferson attended an Episcopalian church and Christ Church.

The following are from a history book called "America's God and Country" by W. Federer, 1994.

        "While in Philedelphia, Thomas Jefferson attended Christ Church."

        "In Virginia Jefferson attended Bruton Parish Church (Episcopalian) in Williamsburg."

[Darkwolf377]

The very quotes you use prove my point--Jefferson constantly qualified his being considered a Christian--he wanted it to be known that he was a believer in Christ's teachings, but not what one would call a Chrsitian today--he was a believer in the Christ, not in the chirch. Thus, a deist, however it was spun at the time and however it's being spun now.

[Mark Felton]

Jefferson calls himself a Christian and proclaims himself to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. Who are you to call him a liar? He does not believe that everything in the Bible is the truth, but much is corrupted by human authors. Many Christians belive the same.

Did Jefferson call Christ a liar? Or mistaken? Does Jefferson ever say Christ spoke false words?

Jefferson believes in the teachings of Christ, and is a Christian, a follower of Christ.

As a Protestant neither you nor anybody else has the authority to qualify somebody elses faith in Jesus Christ.

Jefferson does not believe the Bible is 100% divine. He believes it is full of interpretation and errors by men who wrote it. He does not believe in divine revelations to other men, but that does not disqualify him as a Christian in general, it may only disqualify him from particular sects.

So what? A large percentage of Christians believe the same. That makes Jefferson a Protestant.

Not all Christians accept Christ as their "personal Lord and Saviour". (though he calls Jesus "Our Lord" in the following prayer). The Catholics do not.

That Jefferson would teach Jesus Christ to the Indians and promote that the entire world should follow Christs teachings also makes him an evangelical.

Jefferson clearly believed in a God that does play a role in everyday lives and does provide for a "system of rewards and punishments" and does provide for an afterlife.

Those notions seem to disqualify Jefferson as a deist. Deists believe God does not interfere in everyday lives of men.

Jefferson makes appeals to God often. He believes in demons as well. That may also disqualify him as a deist wh do not believe in demons or malignant spirits.

Jefferson mostly defines himself as a "rational Christian", not a deist. He is skeptical of any words written by man, save those of Christ whose words he seeks to corroborate through the "4 evangelicals".

"I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Dæmonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did. The being described in his 5. points is not the God whom you and I acknolege and adore, the Creator and benevolent governor of the world; but a dæmon of malignant spirit." -- Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, from Monticello, April 11, 1823; Lester J. Cappon, ed., The Adams-Jefferson Letters: The Complete Correspondence, Chapel Hill and London: University of North Carolina Press, 1987, pp. 591-594.

"Almighty God, who has given us this good land for our heritage; We humbly beseech Thee that we may always prove ourselves a people mindful of Thy favor and glad to do Thy will. Bless our land with honorable ministry, sound learning, and pure manners.

Save us from violence, discord, and confusion, from pride and arrogance, and from every evil way. Defend our liberties, and fashion into one united people the multitude brought hither out of many kindreds and tongues.

Endow with Thy spirit of wisdom those to whom in Thy Name we entrust the authority of government, that there may be justice and peace at home, and that through obedience to Thy Law, we may show forth Thy praise among the nations of the earth.

In time of prosperity fill our hearts with thankfulness, and in the day of trouble, suffer not our trust in Thee to fail; all of which we ask through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen."
-- Thomas Jefferson, March 4, 1805 A National prayer for Peace
Sources: 1) Richardson, A compilation of Messages and Papers of the Presidents 1789-1897, 10 vols, Vol 1 p. 379. 2) Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution - The Faith of the Founding Fathers p. 243

[Darkwolf377]

I never called him a liar. Your bizarre need to twist people's meanings so you can pick a fight is annoying, and there's no use arguing with such a meathead.

[Darkwolf377]

"neither you nor anybody else has the authority to qualify somebody elses faith in Jesus Christ. "

And yet you have done just that with Jefferson's words. LOL!

Do as you say, not as you do.

[Mark Felton]

The very quotes you use prove my point--Jefferson constantly qualified his being considered a Christian--he wanted it to be known that he was a believer in Christ's teachings, but not what one would call a Chrsitian today--he was a believer in the Christ, not in the chirch.

For the record I am a believer in Christs teachings, not the church.

I do not worship the church, nor any institution of man.

The church is not my Lord or Saviour.

Christ is my Lord.

The church is a fellowship of believers, who come together to better follow Christs teachings, but each church is different.

Protestantism is a rejection of Church authority to sanctify our relationship with God.

No church and no man tells me if I am a Christian or not. (And I am a Souther Baptist evangelical "bible-thumper").

I believe everyman's relationship with Christ and God is personal. (that is why I rejected catholicism as a young man)

[Darkwolf377]

Good for you. I don't know what this has to do with anything, though. BTW, I'm an evil atheist, so you're just wasting your time now. Best wishes.