Live Thread: CBS Evening News (Dan tells us why we're all wrong)

www.freerepublic.com | September 10, 2004

[Howlin]

Have at it.

******Transcript************

'KEY CHALLENGES TO NATIONAL GUARD DOCUMENTS ANSWERED'
Fri Sep 10 2004 19:03:11 ET

The biggest challenges to the authenticity of the documents featured in the 60 MINUTES segment on President Bush's Texas National Guard service are answered in a report to be broadcast on the CBS EVENING NEWS tonight (6:30-7:00 PM, ET/PT) on the CBS Television Network. The report states that the type style, typewriter and the superscript function critics claim did not exist at the time the memos from President Bush's former Texas National Guard commander were typed were indeed all available. In fact, similar raised "th" superscripts have been found on other National Guard documents the White House has released from the president's file.

Furthermore, Marcel Mately, the document and handwriting expert used to authenticate the documents for CBS News and 60 MINUTES, asserts that copies of the memos critics are examining have been degraded by reproduction though photocopying, computer scanning and faxing and are not reliable representations of the memos.

A transcript is attached:

BUSH DOCUMENTS

EVENING NEWS WITH DAN RATHER

9-10-04

Rather Lead In: There were attacks today on the CBS News "60 Minutes" report this week raising new questions about President Bush's Vietnam-era time in the Texas Air National Guard. The questions raised by our report include:

--Did a wealthy Texas oilman-friend of the Bush family use his influence with the speaker of the Texas House of Representatives .. to get George W. Bush a coveted slot in the National Guard .. keeping him out of the draft and any probable service IN Vietnam?

--Did Lieutenant Bush refuse a direct order from his commanding officer?

--Was Lieutenant. Bush suspended for failure to perform up to standards?

--Did Lieutenant Bush ever take a physical he was required and ordered to take? If not, why not?

--And did Lieutenant Bush, in fact, complete his commitment to the Guard?

These questions grew out of new witnesses and new evidence -- including documents written by Lieutenant Bush's squadron commander.

Today, on the internet and elsewhere, some people -- including many who are partisan political operatives -- concentrated not on the key questions the overall story raised but on the documents that were part of the support of the story.

They alleged the documents are FAKE.

Rather: MANY OF THOSE RAISING QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CBS DOCUMENTS HAVE FOCUSED ON SOMETHING CALLED SUPERSCRIPT... A KEY THAT AUTOMATICALLY TYPES A RAISED "TH". CRITICS CLAIM TYPEWRITERS DIDN'T HAVE THAT ABILITY IN THE 70S. BUT SOME MODELS DID....IN FACT, OTHER BUSH MILITARY RECORDS ALREADY OFFICIALLY RELEASED BY THE WHITE HOUSE ITSELF SHOW THE SAME SUPERSCRIPT.

HERE'S ONE..... FROM 1968.

SOME ANALYSTS OUTSIDE CBS SAY THEY BELIEVE THE TYPEFACE ON THESE MEMOS IS NEW TIMES ROMAN.... WHICH THEY CLAIM WAS NOT AVAILABLE IN THE 1970S.

BUT THE OWNER OF THE COMPANY THAT DISTRIBUTES THIS TYPING STYLE.... SAYS IT HAS BEEN AVAILABE SINCE 1931. DOCUMENT AND HANDWRITING EXAMINER MARCEL MATLEY ANALYZED THE DOCUMENTS FOR CBS NEWS.

HE SAYS HE BELIEVES THEY ARE REAL...BUT IS CONCERNED ABOUT EXACTLY WHAT IS BEING EXAMINED BY SOME OF THE PEOPLE QUESTIONING THE DOCUMENTS....BECAUSE DETIORATION OCCURS EACH TIME A DOCUMENT IS REPRODUCED.....AND THE DOCUMENTS BEING ANALYZED OUTSIDE OF CBS HAVEBEEN PHOTOCOPIED, FAXED, SCANNED AND DOWNLOADED.... AND ARE FAR REMOVED FROM THE DOCUMENTS CBS STARTED WITH WHICH WERE ALSO PHOTOCOPIES.

DOCUMENT AND HANDWRITING EXAMINER MARCEL MATLEY DID THIS INTERVIEW WITH US PRIOR TO THE 60 MINUTES BROADCAST.

HE LOOKED AT THE DOCUMENTS AND THE SIGNATURES OF COLONEL JERRY KILLIAN.... COMPARING KNOWN DOCUMENTS WITH THE COLONEL'S SIGNATURE ON THE NEWSLY DISCOVERED ONES.

Matley: "WE LOOK BASICALLY AT WHAT'S CALLED SIGNIFICANT OR INSIGNIFICANT FEATURES TO DETERMINE WHETHER IT'S THE SAME PERSON OR NOT. I HAVE NO PROBLEM IDENTIFYING THEM.

I WOULD SAY BASED ON OUR AVAILABLE HANDWRITING EVIDENCE, YES. THIS IS THE SAME PERSON."

Rather: MATLEY FINDS THE SIGNAT'URES TO BE SOME OF THE MOST COMPELLING EVIDENCE...WE TALKED TO HIM AGAIN TODAY BY SATELLITE.

Matley "SINCE IT IS REPRESENTED THAT SOME OF THEM ARE DEFINITELY HIS... THEN WE CAN CONCLUDE THEY ARE HIS SIGNATURES."

Rather: "ARE YOU SURPRISED THAT QUESTIONS COME ABOUT THESE. WE'RE NOT, BUT I WAS WONDERING IF YOU'RE SURPRISED."

Matley: "I KNEW GOING IN THAT THIS WAS DYNAMITE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER AND I KNEW THAT POTENTIALLY IT WAS FAR MORE POTENTIAL DAMAGE TO ME PROFESSIONALLY THAN BENEFIT ME. AND I KNEW THAT. BUT WE SEEK THE TRUTH. THAT'S WHAT WE DO. YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO PUT YOURSELF OUT. TO SEEK THE TRUTH AND TAKE WHAT COMES FROM IT."

Rather: ROBERT STRONG WAS AN ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICER FOR THE TEXAS AIR NATIONAL GUARD DURING THE VIETNAM YEARS. HE KNEW COL. JERRY KILLIAN, THE MAN CREDITED WITH WRITING THE DOCUMENTS.... AND PAPER WORK... LIKE THESE DOCUMENTS...WAS HIS SPECIALTY. HE IS STANDING BY HIS JUDGEMENT THAT THE DOCUMENTS ARE REAL.

Rather: "WHEN YOU READ THROUGH THESE DOCUMENTS, IS THERE ANY DOUBT IN YOUR MIND THAT THESE ARE GENUINE?"

Strong: "WELL,, THEY ARE COMPATIBLE WITH THE WAY BUSINESS WAS DONE AT THAT TIME. THEY ARE COMPATIBLE WITH THE MAN THAT I REMEMBER JERRY KILLIAN BEING. I DON'T SEE ANYTHING IN THE DOCUMENTS THAT'S DISCORDANT WITH WHAT WERE THE TIMES, WHAT WERE THE SITUATION OR WHAT WERE THE PEOPLE INVOLVED."

Rather: STRONG SAYS THE HIGHLY CHARGED POLITICAL ATMOSPHERE OF THE GUARD AT THE TIME... WAS PERFECTLY REPRESENTED IN THE NEW DOCUMENTS

Strong: "IT VERGED ON OUTRIGHT CORRUPTION IN TERMS OF THE FAVORS THAT WERE DONE, THE POWER THAT WAS TRADED. AND IT WAS UNCONSCIONABLE. FROM A MORAL AND ETHICAL STANDPOINT. IT WAS UNCONSCIONABLE."

Rather: IT IS THE INFORMATION IN THE NEW DOCUMENTS THAT IS MOST COMPELLING FOR PEOPLE FAMILIAR WITH PRESIDENT BUSH'S RECORD IN THE NATIONAL GUARD. AUTHOR JIM MORE HAS WRITTEN TWO BOOKS ON THE SUBJECT.

Rather: "YOU'VE STUDIED PRESIDENT BUSH'S RECORDS FOR 10 YEARS.. ARE THESE DOCUMENTS CONSISTENT WITH THE RECORD AS YOU KNOW IT?"

Moore: "THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY CONSISTENT WITH THE RECORDS AS I KNOW IT."

Rather: "PUT IT IN CONTEXT AND PERSPECTIVE FOR US ... THE STORY AND WHAT WE CALL THE COUNTERATTACK ON THE STORY. WHERE ARE WE RIGHT NOW?

Moore "I THINK WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS SOME INCRIMINATING DOCUMENTS HAVE COME OUT. THE WHITE HOUSE, YOU SHOULD REMEMBER, HAS NOT DISCREDITED THE DOCUMENTS. THEY'RE RELYING ON THE BLOGOSPHERE AND OTHER PEOPLE TO DO THAT. BECAUSE THE WHITE HOUSE PROBABLY KNOWS THESE DOCUMENTS ARE IN FACT REAL."

Rather Tag: The "60 Minutes" report was based NOT solely on the recovered documents .. but on a preponderance of evidence .. including documents that were provided by un-impeachable sources .. and interviews with former officials of the Texas National Guard. If any definitive evidence to the contrary of our story is found, we will report it.

So far, there is none.

[tapatio]

http://fennel.assumption.edu/~guest/view/1996/View0396.htm

[Capricam]

To distort the print and make the documents look older than yesterday. To FAKE them. (duh)

[Sir Gawain]

Here's the video from an anti-Bush site. Feel free to crash it with traffic:

http://BushLies2.Us/video/wmv/bush_awol_cbs.wmv

[ThinkDifferent]

The superscript Rather showed was not the same one.

Rather's superscript is a joke. It's a single symbol in fixed-width Courier, and unlike the forged memo it doesn't extend past the top of the other letters.

[TalBlack]

Does anyone else feel as though we're living in the twilight zone?


I've had that feeling growing as the MSM and the Democrats lose traction in things that they have dominated for all of my life, and as they seem to gome unglued. They are not acting like rational people at all. I don't know WHAT to make of these forged docs....I mean, was this a plan!!!???

I wonder what will fill that vacuume(remember how quickly Evil Islam filled the vacuume left by the fall of the Soviet Union at "The End Of History"). And I wonder what these Evil creeps will do. ("Evil" in the literal sense)If they really are behind this forgery and Rather really did jump with out even WANTING to look...then they've collectivly actually gone nuts!

[been_lurking]

Dan Rather issued a circle the wagons plea I believe

I don't think the MSM has enough wagons left to circle anything. They're all trying to save their own scalps. I don't think they will chance a total massacre just to save rather's butt.

I think the big three (ABC NBC CNN) television media will rally to Rather's plea. I don't think the print media will play the same game. They will run with it in an attempt to boost their slumping circulation. Look for the most damning investigations to show up in print.

[airstrike]

Oh God. This is the most insane Presidential contest in my lifetime and I'm 63 years old. And I mean on the Democrat side of things. Kerry is so inept it's hilarious and his VP isn't any better. Add all the ineffective attacks on Bush from Michael Moore to Dan Rather to Kitty Kelley and the only thing that comes to mind is Thank God that God is on our side. Bush will, deservedly so, win this thing going away and then we can get back to business and kick the snot out of Iran. I'd go back to sleep until Nov 2 and just go vote that day but I'm sure there is so much more to come. Rather's half assed attempt to 'splain things tonight only made it worse as far as I'm concerned.

[Sonar5]

I think it was this one that Rather was talking about right?

which is from USA Today....

http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/9-Miscellaneous.pdf
Page 3

Hard to tell, but I found these yesterday, from USA Today,
posted somewhere else, large file, PDF 674k

http://www.usatoday.com/news/bushdocs/9-Miscellaneous.pdf

Page 3, shows 111th, and that was dated April, '73
File also contains many handwritten notes over typed stuff,
such as dates, etc....

However, it does appear that the th may be slightly higher... but it looks a bit off form the text right after it, kind of odd like....

If that is the reference though, everywhere else on that page the th is not superscripted...

Which makes that particular line suspect to me, anyway....

Here is a blowup of the Page 3 doc from USA Today...



And of course, the CYA memo... You look at how messy the th is in the Page 3 record compared to the clean look of the CYA memo...

Besides, who used four year dates back then..... No one I know used four year dates until Y2K started rearing its head...

[Helms]

"I think telling the blogosphere to F**k Off is a very bad idea, like fighting a fire with gasoline."

Its also like detonating the core nuclear reaction which is used to produce the Thermonuclear Blast.

It may be that Dan is picking up Rush's use of the same word blogosphere today on his show.

This is unbelievable street cred for FR.

[cyncooper]

Thanks---I just saw the tail end of a Fox segment (I see Tony Snow in for BOR) and some former CBS exec slammed bloggers "sitting in their pajamas in their living rooms".

Stephen Hayes from the Weekly Standard took issue with that insult and eloquently closed the segment with a passionate summation of the concerns and stated firmly that we WILL all know the truth eventually.

Will put on MSNBC which just covered Ivan.

[bvw]

Are you wearing pajamas in your living room while banging away on your keyboard again?

[CedarDave]

When a document is copied once or several times, it is reduced by a fraction. That is why you don't get edge lines when you copy. This document was copied many times so the line spacing will not be true. Measuring line spacing from a copied document is a waste of time.

I thought of something I haven't seen on here before. It has been stated that the "original" may have been photocopied numerous times to make it look old. What if the forged original was printed onto paper that had been run through a copier numerous times. Then it was photocopied only once or twice which made it look old, but maintained spacing close to original, etc. Then when a new version was typed and overlain, it would fit almost perfectly.

[woodyinscc]

Does anyone else feel as though we're living in the twilight zone?

CBS exec. on O'Rielly " it is alright to have a dim partisan as a source, but not a partisan Bush supporter. Tony Snow filling in was aghast, tried to pin him down, and he said we disclosed the sources affiliations.

I'm aghast.!!

[Agrarian]

McAuliffe wants to damage Bush badly, but he also wants him to win. This is not, for us, a fight for the election as much as it is a fight to protect Bush from being damaged goods after he is re-elected.

Either way, McAuliffe, like that entire crowd, is a rather nasty little man.

[gogipper]

I was just trying to be helpful here. The COL talking about 1981 drug screening was chronologically too late because I was in charge of the installation program at Ft. Lewis in 1980. Mandatory random drug screening probably started late in the Viet Nam period.

[shezza]

My reaction to Rather's report tonight is that he is not very smart [or he is getting old].

Should be "and" instead of "or."

[Timeout]

Coming up next on MSNBC.

I'm convinced Dan is taking a page out of Clinton's playbook. Refuse to talk about it or release any more documents until everyone but the most partisan hacks gets tired of the dead end. Add to that his hope that Hurrican Ivan will chang the subject and by the time it's over he can say "old news".

[Mitchell]

Yes, I amended my comments about the Mac later in the thread. The Mac had a 'timesy' font, but not necessarily Times Roman.

Sorry, I thought I checked all the follow-ups, but this is a long thread!

[mass55th]

There's an update to this posting:

"Donald Sensing writes to say there really was an AFM 35-13, whose existence he previously doubted. However, he stands by his stylistic criticisms of the 60 Minutes text.

Update, 9-10: It seems there really was an AFM 35-13 after all. Scott Forbes comment-linked to a page that reproduces orders from 1970 that cite AFM 35-13. Also, Cecil Turner comments about how a manual could be relevant to this matter."

[CFC__VRWC]

That's the one Rather used - I've seen it, but not as close up as here. Notice how the "th" superscript here is underscored - in the forged memo the superscript is not underscored. And MS Word does not underscore this when default setting are used.

Regarding date, wasn't the military using the three letter abbreviation for the month with no spaces between the day and the year (e.g. "18Aug73") even then?