Live Thread: CBS Evening News (Dan tells us why we're all wrong)

www.freerepublic.com | September 10, 2004

[Howlin]

Have at it.

******Transcript************

'KEY CHALLENGES TO NATIONAL GUARD DOCUMENTS ANSWERED'
Fri Sep 10 2004 19:03:11 ET

The biggest challenges to the authenticity of the documents featured in the 60 MINUTES segment on President Bush's Texas National Guard service are answered in a report to be broadcast on the CBS EVENING NEWS tonight (6:30-7:00 PM, ET/PT) on the CBS Television Network. The report states that the type style, typewriter and the superscript function critics claim did not exist at the time the memos from President Bush's former Texas National Guard commander were typed were indeed all available. In fact, similar raised "th" superscripts have been found on other National Guard documents the White House has released from the president's file.

Furthermore, Marcel Mately, the document and handwriting expert used to authenticate the documents for CBS News and 60 MINUTES, asserts that copies of the memos critics are examining have been degraded by reproduction though photocopying, computer scanning and faxing and are not reliable representations of the memos.

A transcript is attached:

BUSH DOCUMENTS

EVENING NEWS WITH DAN RATHER

9-10-04

Rather Lead In: There were attacks today on the CBS News "60 Minutes" report this week raising new questions about President Bush's Vietnam-era time in the Texas Air National Guard. The questions raised by our report include:

--Did a wealthy Texas oilman-friend of the Bush family use his influence with the speaker of the Texas House of Representatives .. to get George W. Bush a coveted slot in the National Guard .. keeping him out of the draft and any probable service IN Vietnam?

--Did Lieutenant Bush refuse a direct order from his commanding officer?

--Was Lieutenant. Bush suspended for failure to perform up to standards?

--Did Lieutenant Bush ever take a physical he was required and ordered to take? If not, why not?

--And did Lieutenant Bush, in fact, complete his commitment to the Guard?

These questions grew out of new witnesses and new evidence -- including documents written by Lieutenant Bush's squadron commander.

Today, on the internet and elsewhere, some people -- including many who are partisan political operatives -- concentrated not on the key questions the overall story raised but on the documents that were part of the support of the story.

They alleged the documents are FAKE.

Rather: MANY OF THOSE RAISING QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CBS DOCUMENTS HAVE FOCUSED ON SOMETHING CALLED SUPERSCRIPT... A KEY THAT AUTOMATICALLY TYPES A RAISED "TH". CRITICS CLAIM TYPEWRITERS DIDN'T HAVE THAT ABILITY IN THE 70S. BUT SOME MODELS DID....IN FACT, OTHER BUSH MILITARY RECORDS ALREADY OFFICIALLY RELEASED BY THE WHITE HOUSE ITSELF SHOW THE SAME SUPERSCRIPT.

HERE'S ONE..... FROM 1968.

SOME ANALYSTS OUTSIDE CBS SAY THEY BELIEVE THE TYPEFACE ON THESE MEMOS IS NEW TIMES ROMAN.... WHICH THEY CLAIM WAS NOT AVAILABLE IN THE 1970S.

BUT THE OWNER OF THE COMPANY THAT DISTRIBUTES THIS TYPING STYLE.... SAYS IT HAS BEEN AVAILABE SINCE 1931. DOCUMENT AND HANDWRITING EXAMINER MARCEL MATLEY ANALYZED THE DOCUMENTS FOR CBS NEWS.

HE SAYS HE BELIEVES THEY ARE REAL...BUT IS CONCERNED ABOUT EXACTLY WHAT IS BEING EXAMINED BY SOME OF THE PEOPLE QUESTIONING THE DOCUMENTS....BECAUSE DETIORATION OCCURS EACH TIME A DOCUMENT IS REPRODUCED.....AND THE DOCUMENTS BEING ANALYZED OUTSIDE OF CBS HAVEBEEN PHOTOCOPIED, FAXED, SCANNED AND DOWNLOADED.... AND ARE FAR REMOVED FROM THE DOCUMENTS CBS STARTED WITH WHICH WERE ALSO PHOTOCOPIES.

DOCUMENT AND HANDWRITING EXAMINER MARCEL MATLEY DID THIS INTERVIEW WITH US PRIOR TO THE 60 MINUTES BROADCAST.

HE LOOKED AT THE DOCUMENTS AND THE SIGNATURES OF COLONEL JERRY KILLIAN.... COMPARING KNOWN DOCUMENTS WITH THE COLONEL'S SIGNATURE ON THE NEWSLY DISCOVERED ONES.

Matley: "WE LOOK BASICALLY AT WHAT'S CALLED SIGNIFICANT OR INSIGNIFICANT FEATURES TO DETERMINE WHETHER IT'S THE SAME PERSON OR NOT. I HAVE NO PROBLEM IDENTIFYING THEM.

I WOULD SAY BASED ON OUR AVAILABLE HANDWRITING EVIDENCE, YES. THIS IS THE SAME PERSON."

Rather: MATLEY FINDS THE SIGNAT'URES TO BE SOME OF THE MOST COMPELLING EVIDENCE...WE TALKED TO HIM AGAIN TODAY BY SATELLITE.

Matley "SINCE IT IS REPRESENTED THAT SOME OF THEM ARE DEFINITELY HIS... THEN WE CAN CONCLUDE THEY ARE HIS SIGNATURES."

Rather: "ARE YOU SURPRISED THAT QUESTIONS COME ABOUT THESE. WE'RE NOT, BUT I WAS WONDERING IF YOU'RE SURPRISED."

Matley: "I KNEW GOING IN THAT THIS WAS DYNAMITE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER AND I KNEW THAT POTENTIALLY IT WAS FAR MORE POTENTIAL DAMAGE TO ME PROFESSIONALLY THAN BENEFIT ME. AND I KNEW THAT. BUT WE SEEK THE TRUTH. THAT'S WHAT WE DO. YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO PUT YOURSELF OUT. TO SEEK THE TRUTH AND TAKE WHAT COMES FROM IT."

Rather: ROBERT STRONG WAS AN ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICER FOR THE TEXAS AIR NATIONAL GUARD DURING THE VIETNAM YEARS. HE KNEW COL. JERRY KILLIAN, THE MAN CREDITED WITH WRITING THE DOCUMENTS.... AND PAPER WORK... LIKE THESE DOCUMENTS...WAS HIS SPECIALTY. HE IS STANDING BY HIS JUDGEMENT THAT THE DOCUMENTS ARE REAL.

Rather: "WHEN YOU READ THROUGH THESE DOCUMENTS, IS THERE ANY DOUBT IN YOUR MIND THAT THESE ARE GENUINE?"

Strong: "WELL,, THEY ARE COMPATIBLE WITH THE WAY BUSINESS WAS DONE AT THAT TIME. THEY ARE COMPATIBLE WITH THE MAN THAT I REMEMBER JERRY KILLIAN BEING. I DON'T SEE ANYTHING IN THE DOCUMENTS THAT'S DISCORDANT WITH WHAT WERE THE TIMES, WHAT WERE THE SITUATION OR WHAT WERE THE PEOPLE INVOLVED."

Rather: STRONG SAYS THE HIGHLY CHARGED POLITICAL ATMOSPHERE OF THE GUARD AT THE TIME... WAS PERFECTLY REPRESENTED IN THE NEW DOCUMENTS

Strong: "IT VERGED ON OUTRIGHT CORRUPTION IN TERMS OF THE FAVORS THAT WERE DONE, THE POWER THAT WAS TRADED. AND IT WAS UNCONSCIONABLE. FROM A MORAL AND ETHICAL STANDPOINT. IT WAS UNCONSCIONABLE."

Rather: IT IS THE INFORMATION IN THE NEW DOCUMENTS THAT IS MOST COMPELLING FOR PEOPLE FAMILIAR WITH PRESIDENT BUSH'S RECORD IN THE NATIONAL GUARD. AUTHOR JIM MORE HAS WRITTEN TWO BOOKS ON THE SUBJECT.

Rather: "YOU'VE STUDIED PRESIDENT BUSH'S RECORDS FOR 10 YEARS.. ARE THESE DOCUMENTS CONSISTENT WITH THE RECORD AS YOU KNOW IT?"

Moore: "THEY ARE ABSOLUTELY CONSISTENT WITH THE RECORDS AS I KNOW IT."

Rather: "PUT IT IN CONTEXT AND PERSPECTIVE FOR US ... THE STORY AND WHAT WE CALL THE COUNTERATTACK ON THE STORY. WHERE ARE WE RIGHT NOW?

Moore "I THINK WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS SOME INCRIMINATING DOCUMENTS HAVE COME OUT. THE WHITE HOUSE, YOU SHOULD REMEMBER, HAS NOT DISCREDITED THE DOCUMENTS. THEY'RE RELYING ON THE BLOGOSPHERE AND OTHER PEOPLE TO DO THAT. BECAUSE THE WHITE HOUSE PROBABLY KNOWS THESE DOCUMENTS ARE IN FACT REAL."

Rather Tag: The "60 Minutes" report was based NOT solely on the recovered documents .. but on a preponderance of evidence .. including documents that were provided by un-impeachable sources .. and interviews with former officials of the Texas National Guard. If any definitive evidence to the contrary of our story is found, we will report it.

So far, there is none.

[SW6906]

Posts 580 & 630 answered for me. I thought the West coast feeds were live, now I too know they are taped!

[snooker]

The Berlin wall of the news business is falling down. Deal with it :)

[Max7]

Dan Rather thinks we're all stupid people out here (nee -the little people) and can't figure anything out. He is SO YESTERDAY'S NEWS. (I wish.)

[JesseHousman]

"I KNEW GOING IN THAT THIS WAS DYNAMITE ONE WAY OR THE OTHER...

Yeah, Dan. This "dynamite" is going to blow your meaningless career to smithereens!

[Artemis Webb]

yes please put me on the live thread...thank you.

[weegee]

When it comes to autograph collecting or other historical items, it is important to be able to discuss the lineage of just how something got to your hands. This shows that it was not stolen and provides for verification of authenticity (maybe some other document references that xxx has had possession of item abc for a long time, or maybe your source xxx is a well respected and trusted source).

Also, sometimes the lineage of how the item passed from hand to hand is an interesting story in its own right.

I think that the term may have entered more common usage through Antiques Roadshow (although I don't watch it very often).

[radiohead]

Also, sometimes the lineage of how the item passed from hand to hand is an interesting story in its own right.

True.

I think that the term may have entered more common usage through Antiques Roadshow

Ah. I know of the show, tho I don't watch it. It makes sense that it would popularize the word, tho. Hope I didn't come off sounding too much like Terayza, I just don't hear 'provenance' outside of my academic discipline and thought I had run into another one of the initiated.

[RaceBannon]

That right there is more evidence than needed!!

[supercat]

I remember using a Mac Plus for newspaper layout in 1986, and I used their 'timesy' font a thousand times. It really BOTHERS me that I can't remember that name that I selected from the font menu a thousand billion times.

If you had a LaserWriter, it would have been "Times". Otherwise, "New York". The original Macintosh fonts were named after cities (Chicago, Geneva, New York, London, Venice, San Francisco, and two others I can't remember (one was rather blocky; the other had an uppercase "M" that looked like an oversized lowercase one). IIRC, an early magazine article about the Macintosh have the names of the above fonts as "System", "?", "Roman(?)", "Old English", "Cursive", "Ransom", "?", and "Ardmore".

[anymouse]

Great compilation of all of the inconsistencies with the C-BS memos.

Ran into a gentleman today that flew in the TX Guard at Ellington Field under Col. Killian, but not at the same time as President Bush. He said the C-BS memos were obvious fakes. I suggested that he contact the local talk radio shows, since they would love to interview someone with some insight into this fraud.

There are quite a few former TX Guard fliers in the Houston area that knew Col. Killian or President Bush in that era. I'm sure C-BS won't be interviewing them anytime soon. (/sarcasm)

[supercat]

I don't remember when I first saw Times Roman on a Mac, but I think it was quite a bit later. I'm fairly sure that the first time I saw it was in an implementation of TeX, where it was imported from the UNIX world. I could be wrong about this, though.

The font known as "Times" on the Macintosh font menu, would use one of the following depending upon whether bold or italic text was selected: Times-Roman; Times-Bold; Times-Italic; Times-BoldItalic. The Helvetica font would use Hevletica, Helvetica-Bold, Hevletica-Oblique, or Helvetica-BoldOblique. The Symbol font would simply use Symbol, regardless of whether bold or italic was selected.

[supercat]

The original Macintosh serif font was called "Times Roman."

Actually, it was almost never called that. On the font menu, the label "Times" was used to select "Times-Roman", "Times-Italic", "Times-Bold", and "Times-BoldItalic" (punctuated and capitalized exactly was written, less the quotes). One of the seldom-appreciated features of the real typography on the Mac was that selecting "bold" or "italic" for many of the laserprinted fonts would automatically select an entirely different font. This was most noticeable for italic text, but was also noticeable for bold.

Examples: aa bb.

The italic "a" has nothing in common with the shape of the Roman "a". The bold "b" is closer to the non-bold "b", but the left-side features are completely different. Generally serif fonts use italic characters for "italics" and sans-serif fonts simply slant normal characters, but a few sans-serif fonts use a true italic style (my favorite, btw, was called "Financial" from the package "More Fonts for Windows". Anyone ever seen it?)

[supercat]

Interesting list. The original bitmapped Mac fonts (on the very first 1984 Mac) were Athens, Chicago, Geneva, London, New York, San Francisco and Venice.

You (and I) forgot the monospaced Monaco, which is one of the few fonts that has been burned into the Macintosh ROM since the beginning (the ROMs contain Monaco-9, Chicago-12, Geneva-9, and maybe Geneva-12). Oddly, the Macintosh balks at any effort to remove those four fonts from System even though they serve no purpose but to waste disk space (I've deleted them from System on a bootable disk and nothing bad happened).