Posted on 07/05/2004 4:44:21 AM PDT by AngloSaxon
Smacking laws set to be tightened
Parents could be prosecuted for causing harm to their child Proposals to limit the right of parents to smack their children will be debated in the House of Lords later on Monday. An amendment to the Children Bill seeks to ban smacking in England and Wales if it causes harm such as bruises, scratches or reddening of the skin.
The government has given Labour peers a free vote on the change - but has told them they must vote against another amendment backing a total ban.
Novelist Salman Rushdie, who wants a complete ban, called it a "fudge".
But a spokesman for Tony Blair said the government wanted to achieve a balance between parents' right to discipline, and protecting children.
"We do not want to criminalise parents so we are opposed to an outright ban," he added.
Peers will vote first on Monday afternoon on the complete ban - and only vote on Lord Lester's compromise amendment if it is rejected.
Flood of prosecutions
Ministers have been accused of reneging on a pledge to outlaw smacking by telling peers to oppose a complete ban, and by giving them a free vote on Lib Dem Lord Lester's amendment.
His amendment allows "moderate smacking" but removes the defence of "reasonable chastisement".
Parents who inflict bruising or reddening of the skin, or cause mental harm could be prosecuted.
Debates over possible bans on smoking and smacking have raised the inevitable arguments about a nanny state
BBC News Online's Nick Assinder
Analysis: smacking Ministers fear an outright ban would lead to a flood of prosecutions over minor offences.
Health Secretary Dr John Reid said he believed most people would back the government's approach, which will take shape during a House of Lords debate on the Children Bill on Monday.
But Mr Rushdie, who supports Children are Unbeatable, an umbrella group for more than 350 organisations campaigning for a complete ban, said the government had pledged a ban six years ago.
"Our view is quite simple - there is a human rights issue and this is not a question of nannying it's a question of increasing personal freedom ... that's to say to give children the personal freedom not to be hit," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.
Conservative spokesman Theresa May said her party did not have an official "position" on smacking, preferring to leave it up to individuals' conscience. She said she personally did not support a total ban.
Law 'outdated'
The official Lib Dem policy is to give children equal legal protection from assault as adults.
The party's children's spokeswoman in the Lords, Baroness Walmsley, is backing a complete ban on smacking.
She said: "Assaulting a child is as unacceptable as assaulting an adult, and the law should clearly say so."
Under a definition of "reasonable chastisement", dating back to 1860, parents can currently use a degree of force to discipline their children.
The arguments for smacking children are as backwards and outmoded as those that used to allow the smacking of one's wife. We wouldn't accept "It's nobody's business if I smack my wife", "How will my wife learn discipline otherwise?" or the pathetic "Sometimes the only thing my wife respects is a slap".
Matt, Amsterdam
Your views on smacking
Under Lord Lester's amendment, any parent who inflicted actual bodily harm on a child could be prosecuted and would no longer have the protection of the defence.
Supporters of removing the "reasonable chastisement" defence say it is often used by parents as their defence in cases involving abuse.
More than 200 peers and MPs, including many from the Labour side, signed up to a campaign to amend the current Children's Bill passing through Parliament.
The Bill puts into effect recommendations from the inquiry into the death of Victoria Climbie, who died after repeated abuse.
Labour MP David Hinchliffe, who chairs the Commons select committee on health and used to work in child protection, has said the child protection agencies "are working with one arm tied behind their back" with the "outdated" current law.
When I recall my childhood, one image is, looking over my shoulder at a descending belt, which most certainly did leave red marks. Important Remedial Information was transmitted up the spinal cord to the brain, resulting in arrest-free, divorce-free, welfare-free, drug-free and happy productive lives for me and my five siblings.
The only time I ever act up is on here, while posting. :-)
I was beaten with a belt which left huge red whelts and bruises on me, the buckle really made terrible wounds on me, all the while I was being cussed out. Usually my dad was upset at someone else and took it out on me. All I learned was to fear and hate my father. I used to hope and pray he would die in a car wreck on his way home. He was so mean and cruel to me, my sisters, and my mother. He never really talked to us, we were lowly females. My sister didn't find out until she was about 40 that my father had an older brother who is still MIA in WWII. He never talked to us nice and calmly.
I have long ago forgiven him, no one is that angry and mean on purpose. I never whipped my kids with a belt. I found that a tiny slap on their leg, and I mean tiny, same way I gave them a love pat, was all it took to get their attention. You don't have to beat them. There is a thin line between spanking and beating, it can escalate. And there was no place to go to and complain back in the 1950s.
I have never hit, spanked or slapped my almost-six-year-old daughter.
She is a spirited one, and we have had more than our share of (ahem) disagreements.
But I simply could not ever imagine raising a hand to her in anger. I just don't understand how parents can do it.
Spankin' bump. Just wait until an untouchable generation of cretins grows to teenhood in England.
Poor Britain!
"But I simply could not ever imagine raising a hand to her in anger. I just don't understand how parents can do it."
Anger? Do you believe that those who spank their kids do it because they're angry? Love has more to do with it than anger.
In my father's defense, I will admit that I was a pretty awful kid...We all were-Always up to something. But we were never spanked unless we ignored repeated warnings, and not because someone else had a bad day. I do agree with you that there are some that take it out on their children, but there is a big difference. Nevertheless I likewise was filled with rage at the time. Some of my father's punishments were really creative. Knowing I hated baseball, the worst one, worse than a spanking, was to make me stay indoors and watch baseball games on a beautiful June Day. That punishment was reservd for SERIOUS transgressions, like making gunpowder and bombing the neighbor's chicken coop.
We were bright creative kids, who found really interesting ways to p*ss people off, and extremes were sometimes needed to get our attention.
Proverbs 13:24
Yes, I have heard that said before. Perhaps it is true.
I am not judging what decisions other loving parents make when it comes to disciplining their children. Well, I am actually, but I would never presume to tell another parent what they should or shouldn't do.
But apart from the fact that I believe spanking to be counter-productive, I simply don't have it in me to hit my daughter with such force as would be required in order for it to act as a deterrent to future misbehavior.
The West contemplates its navel.
I agree with you LibKill.
Spare the rod, spoil the child.
A power-grab by the state
In yesterday's Observer ("The Guardian on Sunday") there were articles both condemning the punishment of children by parents, and also calling for laws against "anti-social behaviour" (unruly kids)
It's an attempt by Government to appropriate for itself the task of child-raising. Nothing more.
Those that don't discipline their children, hate them.
"Hitting is punishment, not discipline."
Do not withold discipline from a child;
if you punish him with the rod he will not die.
Punish him with the rod
and save his soul from death.--Proverbs 23:13-14
Sounds like good advice to me.
Suddenly I remember chatting with you about this some time back. Your point of view hasn't changed, and neither has mine.
Let's not waste each other's time.
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