Posted on 05/16/2004 12:59:53 PM PDT by jmstein7
There is now a debate raging on FR about trolls, honest dissent, and the value of free speech. I would like to weigh in on this and then solicit opinions from all of you on the subject.
The First Amendment was a response to the English experience of viewpoint suppression by requiring licensing of the press – i.e. requiring pre-approval of books – the doctrine of construction treason, which held that writing can constitute treason, a capital offense, and the law of seditious libel, criminalizing unfavorable reporting of the government. However, the debate in the United States did not truly reach maturity until the early half of the 20th Century.
Justice Holmes (in, I believe, Abrams v. United States) famously averred that “[t]he best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market.” Even opinions which we “loathe and believe to be fraught with death” should not be suppressed, “unless they so imminently threaten immediate interference with the lawful and pressing purposes of the law that an immediate check is required to save the country.”
Alternatively, the self governance rationale posits that, because the general welfare depends on the citizens making enlightened decisions, in a democratic society, free expression and discussion are essential to deciding matters of public policy. The autonomy rationale holds that for an individual to regard himself as autonomous, he must see himself as free to decide which beliefs to hold. The First Amendment is also justified on the basis that it checks the abuse of power by public officials, it diffuses dissent by creating an atmosphere of open discussion, and it fosters a tolerant society.
I am inclined to agree with Justice Holmes – and that is why I support, as I think most FReepers do – honest dissent. Although such expression of opinion may make us angry, as the Court insinuated in Terminiello v. Chicago, the most valuable expression may well be that which because it is provocative and challenging, produces these emotions. This type of debate aids us in our perpetual search for the truth.
There is no such thing as a false idea. However pernicious an opinion may seem, we depend for its correction not on the conscience of judges and juries, but on the competition of other ideas. However, what we are concerned with is false statement of fact – this type of speech, particularly speech that is intended to be deceptive, adds nothing to public debate. False statements of fact, e.g. intentionally deceptive or libelous utterances, are not within the area of constitutionally protected speech. Deceptive or defamatory speech is “low value speech,” and it adds nothing constructive to the marketplace of ideas. This is why trolls are prohibited – because they add nothing to the debate and exist only to deceive and distort the truth we are seeking.
In a nutshell, we at FR do not support viewpoint discrimination. However, what we do ask for, at a minimum, is open and honest debate as we, together search for the truth. That is, per se, the value of free speech in a Free Republic.
My hope for the future is that the Dems will continue their spiral into irrelevance, and that a new party will coalesce to the right of the GOP. Once the Dems are completely sidelined, I'm moving right.
Lots of room over here, no need to wait.
I think if someone takes the time to post a vanity, it's likely (depending on the content) that they aren't trolls. I occasionally go on other sites, and I'm appalled by the lack of grammar or spelling skills. Unless the person is hostile jackass, I won't play spelling nazi and embarass the poster.
Imo, trolls post inflammatory comments to existing threads.
The problem is that most of the folks here are very intelligent, and well educated. Their kids are the same, so when they see a crappy looking post, everyone yells "Troll"! My kids spelling skills, no matter how much I work with them, are pitifull. It doesn't mean they're democrats, however ;-)
I can't NOT vote straight GOP yet-- I have to be sure that the Dems are in their coffin. Also, a viable third party hasn't yet emerged. It's still way too early.
Voting straight Ticket is not a good idea anyway, Libs around these parts just change parties for elections.
You don't have to be a pubbie to be Right, you just have to be Right.
Are you debating that this forum and the First Amendment have some sort of connection?
Hehehe, like I said, I don't play spelling Nazi.
Thanks, and God bless President Bush! Now I can get off the reservation, lmao!
No
He's done nothing of the sort.
This forum is not "public" by any means.
It's Jim's site. He can do what he wants.
Get out of town!
Really?
Unfortunately, I'm frequently called a troll for my dissenting views on firearms and Howard Stern. It's unfortunate but it's a fact I live with. I do my best to work within FR's guidelines and don't (usually) use profanity, launch personal attacks, nor am I racist or promote violence in posts. I have had the pleasure of being educated by the best that FR has to offer, and I'm grateful to them for opening my eyes on many views.
From www.medhelp.org:
Question Posted By: moon2beam on Tuesday, April 17, 2001
What is Persecution Complex and does it fall in the catagory of paranoia?
Answer Posted By: Forum-M.D.-RG on Tuesday, April 17, 2001:
Persecution complex is more of a popular phrase, not a clinical entity. It refers to the feeling and belief that others are out to get you or hurt you. There are various degrees. Sometimes it is an exaggeration of a real situation and at other times it is totally ungrounded in reality, a product of the person's inner life projection onto the world . That is when it is called paranoia.
The quality of people on this site has fallen dramatically since around the 2000 election. That being said it is still BY FAR, the best site on the internet for general info and intelligent conversation (on threads not inhabited by the flame masters).
Oh look who's here. Who pinged you to this thread?
Sometimes people call other freepers a bad name in the heat of an argument. Usually everyone apologizes and moves on.
Where there's a choice, I will go as far right as I can. But after the primaries, I'm usually left with some mildly socialist GOP candidate and a total flaming Dem commie fascist to choose from. As far as the Pres. election, nobody but Bush and Kerry has a chance of winning. Nader is a very distant third, thankfully.
Like I say, I'm just waiting for a real, viable conservative voice to come along.
LOL. Best of luck working with them. I homeschool, so I know what you mean. My efforts, however, regards my kids, center on the debate surrounding "the need for any education at all" (hope that doesn't mean they're dems). I always win...:-)
On the "vanity" thing... we might be onto something there. Granted, I've seen a few vanity threads that were intended to disrupt. They get zotted immediately, like the comment on this thread. But, here and there, they are usually cries for help. We should help them. On basic issues, we don't have to convince each other. The ones who need convincing shouldn't be summarily chased away.
As far as spelling and grammar, as far as posts here are concerned, the best way to make it better is through example, instead of berating. I agree completely. Thank you!
bttt
That would be two "l"s in troll...
Those of us who enjoy it and find it exciting as well as entertaining, learned long ago that it is not to be taken so seriously that one gets excessively angry or emotionally distressed.
You have violated this on both counts.
FR has two sides to it. There are interesting, thoughtful and well spoken editorials on a raft of subjects, and there is the political activism side.
Stay out of the activism side, because you do not understand it and are taking it far too seriously. It is not a area for the feint of heart. It is a tough, verbal, psychologically demoralizing war of ideas and of power.
It is not pretty and there is no way to make it pretty by putting lipstick on it.
Just stay out of it, and you will feel better immediately, but don't think for a minute that somewhere, the art of politics is nice. It is not, has not ever been and never will be.
It was not long ago that we were shooting each other at the capitol building and on the surrounding grounds. We could return to that at any time.
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