Posted on 05/16/2004 12:59:53 PM PDT by jmstein7
There is now a debate raging on FR about trolls, honest dissent, and the value of free speech. I would like to weigh in on this and then solicit opinions from all of you on the subject.
The First Amendment was a response to the English experience of viewpoint suppression by requiring licensing of the press – i.e. requiring pre-approval of books – the doctrine of construction treason, which held that writing can constitute treason, a capital offense, and the law of seditious libel, criminalizing unfavorable reporting of the government. However, the debate in the United States did not truly reach maturity until the early half of the 20th Century.
Justice Holmes (in, I believe, Abrams v. United States) famously averred that “[t]he best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market.” Even opinions which we “loathe and believe to be fraught with death” should not be suppressed, “unless they so imminently threaten immediate interference with the lawful and pressing purposes of the law that an immediate check is required to save the country.”
Alternatively, the self governance rationale posits that, because the general welfare depends on the citizens making enlightened decisions, in a democratic society, free expression and discussion are essential to deciding matters of public policy. The autonomy rationale holds that for an individual to regard himself as autonomous, he must see himself as free to decide which beliefs to hold. The First Amendment is also justified on the basis that it checks the abuse of power by public officials, it diffuses dissent by creating an atmosphere of open discussion, and it fosters a tolerant society.
I am inclined to agree with Justice Holmes – and that is why I support, as I think most FReepers do – honest dissent. Although such expression of opinion may make us angry, as the Court insinuated in Terminiello v. Chicago, the most valuable expression may well be that which because it is provocative and challenging, produces these emotions. This type of debate aids us in our perpetual search for the truth.
There is no such thing as a false idea. However pernicious an opinion may seem, we depend for its correction not on the conscience of judges and juries, but on the competition of other ideas. However, what we are concerned with is false statement of fact – this type of speech, particularly speech that is intended to be deceptive, adds nothing to public debate. False statements of fact, e.g. intentionally deceptive or libelous utterances, are not within the area of constitutionally protected speech. Deceptive or defamatory speech is “low value speech,” and it adds nothing constructive to the marketplace of ideas. This is why trolls are prohibited – because they add nothing to the debate and exist only to deceive and distort the truth we are seeking.
In a nutshell, we at FR do not support viewpoint discrimination. However, what we do ask for, at a minimum, is open and honest debate as we, together search for the truth. That is, per se, the value of free speech in a Free Republic.
Makes up facts? Another charge. As I've solicited proof, I would guess my response at this point should be expected, where's the proof? I mean if you can openly say this, one would expect you could back it up. And that's the point I was making which you presmed to be responding to. And you respond to it by making another unsubstantiated claim. I don't find that I'm acting incredulously here. All I'm asking is the proof for the claim you make in excusing pretty foul behavior. And you don't seem capable of giving it.
THANK-YOU MR. JIM ROBINSON , FOR ALL YOU DO FOR US!!!
You accuse us of treating Iraqis like Saddam?
ditto!
If you don't wish to wade through hundreds of posts, I'll give you the rundown. Havoc is losing/lost his job as the result of outsourcing supposedly, and it's Bush's fault. Bush is supposed to tear up all the business charters of corporations that produce anything outside of America. And since he won't do that, he's not a real conservative. And those of us who don't agree with him are BushBots.
You sound like a person who has been through it all. Me too. I've suffered through a few of the above maladies. You gotta' just suck it up and move forward. Life isn't fair. And, the old addage is true... it's gold: "Life doesn't owe anybody anything." It sure doesn't OWE us a living. This young, unfortunate girl sounds like someone who was raised the way a lot of kids are lately... by getting everything handed to them. It's a stupid way to raise children, because it teaches them nothing about REAL life. These kids usually end up hating the ones that gave them everything... their parents. I fear it will not be the case but join me in praying that this girl learns the lesson quickly, instead of resorting to years of bitterness and failure and, well... this sort of behavior.
Is there a way to include a new freeper guidelines email as part of signing up? To avoid well meaning people with their personal issues about Bush not getting zotted and all.
Ah, the plot thins. Know what I could do to that line of reasoning - not being a lawyer. Anything else? You found a "RESUME" on file somewhere. Did it occur to you this may not be the same person. Did it occur to you this person could possibly be an IT student with a prior nursing degree? I might note that I have a very good friend who has his Bachelors in mechanical engineering and Masters in Computer Sciences. Two fields which largely stand apart. And that is not uncommon. I mean, if that's the strength of your argument - a resume'. I personally think you not only dropped the ball but did so in grand fashion. I've been in IT support for 4 years with EDS. My resume' is largely Retail. If this person added to her skillset, Her prior resume's no doubt would be the same as with mine. Do you have any sense at this point of what a practiced lawyer could do to you in court?!
Is there something more you aren't telling us...
I've been through it..heard young and old here on FR that go through it..one of the best has just been through it and I hurt for him...if you came on and asked for advice, suggestions, prayers..you have an army of people giving comfort and aid.
Free Republic is private property. The owner of this site can do what he wishes. I'd personally like to see the intelligent threads left up, as long as everyone behaves, but it isn't my call. Oh well, I get to see those adorable kitties ;-)
The problem with hardcore trolls, is that they come here to disrupt, not debate. Maybe the mods could loosen up a bit, and the pitbulls could kick back and find out this person's viewpoint, and where it came from before zotting them. How are you supposed to win hearts and minds, when you're kicking off people who are guilty of not being able to express themselves properly(or spell, for that matter)?
Hey it's not my call.
On a funny note, I've been on this thread for a couple of hours. I read your post to my friend on the phone, and the next thing you know he's having me do a google search for troll dolls. His mom used to buy them for his girls before she died, and he was wondering if they were still sold in stores. He wants to surprise them.
I was just stating that i was curious to see if the person had a resume online so I just googled. That's all. I'm not the liar- I mean lawyer :D I think the freeper who started this thread is a lawyer.
Seeing as how I do occasionally go bananas in threads, arguing in court is the LAST place I'd be.
Of course it's a damnable smear that, as I stated, the democrats make all the time against us as republicans. And as I said, it doesn't help anything if our actions here in anyway lend creedance to their otherwise damnable smear. I'm amazed you haven't twisted what I said to make it seem as though it were my charge against us (that would include me for the jackasses in the crowd too narrow minded to figure it out).
Yes! I've also seen younger people, without the life experience, post here, with their dilemnas, and get a wealth of help and advice. Very diverse here with a good core.
What value is there in a whiny post asking us to spam the congress with calls to action? One person's well aimed or intended political action is another's spam. I have a grip. And a pretty solid one at that.
Have you read my first reply and my others to you?
Therefore, we wholeheartedly support the Bush Doctrine of pre-emptive strikes on known terrorist states and organizations that are believed to present a clear threat to our freedom or national security. We support our military, our troops and our Commander-in-Chief and we oppose turning control of our government back over to the liberals and socialists who favor appeasement, weakness, and subserviency. We do not believe in surrendering to the terrorists as France, Germany, Russia and Spain have done and as Kerry, Kennedy, Clinton and the Democrats, et al, are proposing.
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We aggressively defend our God-given and first amendment guaranteed rights to free speech, free press, free religion, and freedom of association, as well as our constitutional right to control the use and content of our own personal private property. Despite the wailing of the liberal trolls and other doom & gloom naysayers, we feel no compelling need to allow them a platform to promote their repugnant and obnoxious propaganda from our forum. Free Republic is not a liberal debating society. We are conservative activists dedicated to defending our rights, defending our constitution, defending our republic and defending our traditional American way of life.
Our God-given liberty and freedoms are not negotiable.
May God bless and protect our men and women in uniform fighting for our freedom and may God continue to bless America. Jim Robinson"
Seems clear enough to me. :)
Amen.
My dear, I've been through many of the things you describe and worst. I've pulled myself up by the bootstraps. You're basically arguing that life isn't fair, get over it. Life is what we collectively make of it. What I see is someone who for good or bad is trying to find a way to make her point that something isn't fair and that there must be a way to level the playing field. Just as for years, as republicans, we noted how unfair it was that the media treated us all like mindnumbed robots, nazis, idiots, etc. It took one person to do something about it and now we have FoxNews network. I don't suppose you're going to tell the founder of FoxNews he's a whiner and to Just get over it are you. Oh, I see, that's different - right.
...and it doesn't help matters any when you hand them a public example that looks like we're acting in similar fashion.
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