Female GI In Abuse Photos Talks

CBSNEWS ^ | 5/12/04 | CBSNEWS.com

[NYC Republican]

Army Pfc. Lynndie England, seen worldwide in photographs that show her smiling and pointing at naked Iraqi prisoners, said she was ordered to pose for the photos, and felt "kind of weird" in doing so.

In an exclusive interview with Brian Maass of Denver CBS station KCNC-TV, England also confirmed that abuses worse than those depicted in the photos were carried out at the U.S.-run Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, but she declined to discuss them.

England, 21, repeatedly insisted that her actions were dictated by "persons in my higher chain of command."

In the photos, England is seen smiling, cigarette in her mouth, as she leans forward and points at the genitals of a naked, hooded Iraqis. Another photo taken at Abu Ghraib shows her holding a leash that encircles the neck of a naked Iraqi man lying on his side.

"I was instructed by persons in higher rank to stand there and hold this leash and look at the camera," she said.

England said the actions depicted in the photos were intended to put psychological pressure on the Iraqi prisoners.

"Well, I mean, they [the photos] were for psy-op reasons," she said "And the reasons worked. I mean, so to us, we were doing our job, which meant we were doing what we were told, and the outcome was what they wanted. They'd come back and they'd look at the pictures, and they'd state, 'Oh, that's a good tactic, keep it up. That's working. This is working. Keep doing it. It's getting what we need.'"

England, an Army reservist from West Virginia who is four months pregnant, is now stationed at Fort Bragg in North Carolina. The interview was taped Tuesday at Fort Bragg.

England is among seven soldiers from the 372nd Military Police Company who face charges for allegedly degrading and humiliating Iraqi prisoners. One soldier, Spc. Jeremy C. Sivits of Hyndman, Pa., will face a court-martial in Baghdad next week.

"To all of us who have been charged, we all agree that we don't feel like we were doing things that we weren't supposed to, because we were told to do them. We think everything was justified, because we were instructed to do this and to do that," England said.

She told KCNC she was looking forward to having her baby and hopefully one day putting the abuse scandal behind her.

[Howlin]

She told KCNC she was looking forward to having her baby and hopefully one day putting the abuse scandal behind her.

Oh, yeah, that's gonna happen.

[MineralMan]

"Good for you, I guess. Perhaps the military is not the authoritarian organization I thought it was?

The orders you disobeyed had nothing to do with the enemy. Would your superiors have been so forgiving if you had disobeyed an order involving the enemy in a time of war? "

I have no idea. I do know that I would have refused any illegal order...even moreso if it involved prisoners of war and some activity that went against the Geneva Convention.

Would I get punished? Dunno, but that's not the point. I obey the law. I obey my own moral code as well. Refusing illegal orders is the duty of all US service personnel. That's what they taught us in basic training.

My morality is not subvertable by others; only to myself.

[MineralMan]

"She told KCNC she was looking forward to having her baby and hopefully one day putting the abuse scandal behind her.

Oh, yeah, that's gonna happen.

---

I did not write what you quoted.

[Core_Conservative]

It's all Bush's fault!

[monday]

"To equate the horrors of the second world war to these innocuous photos is mad and really disturbing. You have swallowed the propaganda machine out there hook line and sinker!"

I am not equating it to the Second WW, the media, the president, and everyone else is. If America is determined to wallow in guilt, what are we supposed to do about it?

[elfman2]

"It doesn't take someone who is really bright to look at these videos and see that they are staged"

That statement of hers is indicative of sloppy thinking. It implies that her setup premonition is the only explanation for why the photos were staged. There are also stories of staging them to extract evidence and using them for kicks and giggles within an out of control demoralized reservist unit. Neither implies conspiracy.

I don’t know of anyone willing to go to Leavenworth for years with the hope of maybe possibly getting a promised payoff.

Having experienced FR for years, I can’t imagine a story like this going by without at least one conspiracy promoted.

If Baron were psychic, she could be a millionaire from the last link that I showed you. Because she isn’t a millionaire, that would lead one to conclude that she either doesn’t want money or the fame or is not psychic. I’ve never known a “psychic” with a web site who interjects herself into stories like this who doesn’t want either money or fame. So what is a reasonable person left to conclude?

[cyncooper]

Fine, I've read that. As long as you know it is but a portion of the 6000 page report. I heard straight from its author yesterday.

Don't mix up saying abuse did in fact happen--which I agree it obviously did, with the assertion it was somehow policy--especially as the left would have it, coming from Rumsfeld on down.

Army General Says Abuse Caused by Faulty Leadership

Excerpt:

The Army general who investigated the abuse of U.S.-held prisoners in Iraq today blamed a "failure of leadership" for the problem but said he found no evidence that the soldiers who committed the mistreatment were acting on orders from senior officers.

~snip~

[Howlin]

I know that; it came right out of the article.

[MaxPlus305]

But what's the difference between degredation and torture? Torture includes mental anguish. Would we take so kindly to someone saying, "Oh, stop acting all grossed out by seeing those four charred corpses being kicked about in Fallujah...they're just corpses after all"? No. We have a right to believe that the bodies of our loved ones be treated with dignity. And if Middle-easterners have a similar taboo against being naked...well, I have a hard time telling them to "suck it up". Note, I'm not arguing whether or not we should "torture" them in this way. I'm just saying your distinction between degredation and torture seems arbitrary.

[Redcloak]

Yes, it was terrible to watch her saw the head off of that one fellow.

...Oops, my bad. That was someone else. Never mind.

[MineralMan]

"The Army general who investigated the abuse of U.S.-held prisoners in Iraq today blamed a "failure of leadership" for the problem but said he found no evidence that the soldiers who committed the mistreatment were acting on orders from senior officers."

---

I would be surprised if such evidence was found. However, plea bargaining takes place in the military justice system, just as it does in civilian life.

An field investigation often doesn't reveal the extent of a situation. That often only comes out later, during the rest of the process, and these enlisted personnel may have more to tell as the criminal investigation continues.

I don't know what the outcome will be; I'll have to wait like everyone else.

[elfman2]

"Before you nail me, let me say that I am not condoning torture - all I am saying is that what I have seen is degradation, not torture. "

Apparently the torture is in the other 400 photos.

We don’t judge ourselves by the standards of our enemy. I don’t like excuses. I just want to punish those responsible, as far up as it needs to go, and start fighting this war like WWII instead of Vietnam. Unleash our Marines in Fallujah and elsewhere to actually defeat Iraq before we rebuild it.

[cyncooper]

Found the transcript on the sidebar at the WaPo:

Transcript : Taguba, Cambone on Abu Ghraib Report

Incidentally, I'm on CNN for some reason and more court martials announced...

[jwalsh07]

I had a hot shot Air Cav Major order me to put down my weapon once while I was on guard duty. It was pointed at him at the time.

He refused to identify himself or give the password. My duty that night was to guard an armory in Texas. Mundane bs but somebody has to do it.

To make a long story short, I ordered him to lie face down on the ground, remove his ID and slide it over. He did and then he came across with the password.

He then busted my balls for the next hour but he lost because I knew all my general orders backwards and forwards and the answer to anything else he asked me about.

As it turned out he was an honorable guy because he reported the incident, making my First Sargent laugh until he cried. My Company Commander gave me a pass and life went on.

[cyncooper]

Whatever

[Jalapeno]

Cool. Thanks

[RetiredArmy]

Sounds ok to me. A couple of years tied up, with men's boxer shorts over her head would do her some good I guess. Stupid does as stupid is. She claims she was given an order to do what she did. I can guarantee you, GUARANTEE YOU, that I know the Army gives classes on illegal orders and how you are suppose to refuse to carry out an illegal order and report said order up your chain of command. There is always the Inspector General (IG) route to report illegal orders. If she felt she got an illegal order, she should have said something right then and there. Like an officer or sergeant saying: "private, shoot that woman crossing the street over there." The private should respond: "Excuse me sir/sergeant, but that would be murder. Your order is illegal and I will not carry it out." That private should then report the illegal order to his next higher chain of command person or IG. There are places you can do this stuff. To say she did not know is CRAP BIG TIME!

[MineralMan]

"Whatever"

Brilliant riposte.

[MineralMan]

"If she felt she got an illegal order, she should have said something right then and there. Like an officer or sergeant saying: "private, shoot that woman crossing the street over there." The private should respond: "Excuse me sir/sergeant, but that would be murder. Your order is illegal and I will not carry it out." That private should then report the illegal order to his next higher chain of command person or IG. There are places you can do this stuff. To say she did not know is CRAP BIG TIME!"

You're right. Everyone gets this training. However, as in the civilian world, there are idiots in our military, too. I'm afraid this bunch fit that category, and if illegal orders to carry out this business with the prisoners were given, they were too stupid to act properly.

Our soldiers, airmen, sailors, and marines serving in the Middle East deserve our praise, support, and respect. That said, there are always a few who are just plain dumba$$es. If military personnel act illegally, there should be punishement for their actions. If illegal orders were given, those who gave them should also be punished.

When it reaches the highest level that was involved, that's where the punishment should stop, whether it's an NCO or a General.

[rbmillerjr]

Before we all hanger the girl for the vicious "atrocities" of smiling and pointing and leashing terror scum...let's let her have her day in court.