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Victor Davis Hanson: The Wars for the West
VDH ^ | May 7, 2004 | Victor Davis Hanson

Posted on 05/06/2004 11:07:56 PM PDT by quidnunc

Can we stop for a moment, take a deep breadth, and remember the hysteria of the last three years — and then learn something from it?

What did we do to deserve September 11? Cannot we provide a Marshall Plan for the Middle East? Who let our guard down — who became paranoid and passed the Patriot Act? Shouldn’t we at least listen to what bin Laden is saying?

Why kill innocent civilians in Afghanistan? The British and Russians failed and so will we. The peaks are too high; the Northern Alliance is a sham. We can’t fight during Ramadan. There are too few troops. After four weeks, let’s face it: we are in a Vietnam quagmire. Who let bin Laden and Mullah Omar escape? Consensual government will never work with these people. We murdered tens of thousands of innocent Afghans. The country is no better off than before. Can’t we get NATO or the UN into Kabul? Are our air-dropped food packages deliberately made to look like cluster bombs — and laced as well with fatty peanut-butter and jelly?

Who are these neocons? Wasn’t the invasion cooked-up years ago for the Likud party? Don’t preempt or be unilateral in Iraq — but who screwed up in not preempting before 9-11? If we strike Saddam Hussein there will be millions of refugees. Thousands of Americans will die. Moderate governments will fall. We will kill millions of Iraqis. The oil fields will go up in smoke. We want only cheap gas — we will cause gas to skyrocket if we go in. Pay the poor Turks — don’t be blackmailed by them. There are far too few troops. It will be a bloodbath — it was a bullying walkover.

-snip-

We have been fighting two wars all along. The easier one was against the fascists in the Middle East, whom we demolished in Afghanistan in less than eight weeks and routed in Iraq in three — while rounding them up worldwide and preventing another 9-11 attack here at home. But the other challenge? Now that has been nearly impossible to win. For here in the West we are split into two widely divergent groups who disagree about almost everything that has transpired since September 11, a cataclysmic event that apparently exposed a widening fault line.

-snip-

(Excerpt) Read more at victorhanson.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Politics/Elections; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: thewest; vdh; victordavishanson; whywefight
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1 posted on 05/06/2004 11:07:57 PM PDT by quidnunc
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To: Tolik
FYI
2 posted on 05/06/2004 11:12:07 PM PDT by quidnunc (Omnis Gaul delenda est)
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To: quidnunc
bump
3 posted on 05/06/2004 11:58:00 PM PDT by Keltik
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To: quidnunc
I generally find that I am in agreement with the Victor Davis Hanson articles. In this case, he is wide of the mark. We have a Marshall plan for the Middle East. And have been funding it for many years.

We purchase the oil for very high prices that they produce for next to nothing in either physical cost or efort. If their product sold for anything near cost it wuld be about $3 per barrell. The technology that allows for the cheap production, processing, and transporttion of their product was developed and paid for elsewhere. The technology that uses their product was likewise developed elsewhere. What more can an outside group do for them other than create a demand, locate the resources, pay for the development, and then pay a high price for the product which they have in abundance and for which they have no use themselves?

I'm not complaining about the "system" of paying for the oil. I'm complain about the idea that the region is "underfunded" with money to pay for the development. The only development that they seem to be interested in is in creating more islamic studies universities. If they will not participate in a materially productive way in a modern economy, a Marshall Plan will not contribute anything.

4 posted on 05/07/2004 1:19:42 AM PDT by aaCharley
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To: quidnunc
bump
5 posted on 05/07/2004 5:04:20 AM PDT by LadyDoc (liberals only love politically correct poor people)
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To: quidnunc
For here in the West we are split into two widely divergent groups who disagree about almost everything that has transpired since September 11>>>

This is inaccurate.

Here in the West we are split into two widely divergent groups who disagree about almost everything that has transpired since July 4, 1776.
6 posted on 05/07/2004 5:06:23 AM PDT by Ronly Bonly Jones (truth is truth)
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To: Ronly Bonly Jones
Here in the West we are split into two widely divergent groups who disagree about almost everything that has transpired since July 4, 1776.

What planet are you visiting from?
There has always been dissention, a sign of a healthy political system, but not like the last 40 years. This goes beyond dissention and is a war in every respect other than gunpowder. There is nothing healthy at all about our present domestic politics.

I never thought I would live to see the day when treason and sedition are used daily as tools of advantage in the most inane arguments devoid of substance. It's like spoiled mentally deficient children wanting a "turn" at an enclusively adult and sober, deadly serious business.

7 posted on 05/07/2004 6:03:10 AM PDT by Publius6961 (.)
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To: aaCharley
I generally find that I am in agreement with the Victor Davis Hanson articles. In this case, he is wide of the mark. We have a Marshall plan for the Middle East. And have been funding it for many years.

Read the article. He's giving a chronology of the "conventional wisdom" that has been spouted off since 9/11. It's like a mini-history of the constant sniping liberals do daily.

SD

8 posted on 05/07/2004 7:17:07 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: quidnunc
Can we stop for a moment, take a deep breadth, and remember the hysteria of the last three years—and then learn something from it?

What did we do to deserve September 11? Cannot we provide a Marshall Plan for the Middle East? Who let our guard down—who became paranoid and passed the Patriot Act? Shouldn’t we at least listen to what bin Laden is saying?

Why kill innocent civilians in Afghanistan? The British and Russians failed and so will we. The peaks are too high; the Northern Alliance is a sham. We can’t fight during Ramadan. There are too few troops. After four weeks, let’s face it: we are in a Vietnam quagmire. Who let bin Laden and Mullah Omar escape? Consensual government will never work with these people. We murdered tens of thousands of innocent Afghans. The country is no better off than before. Can’t we get NATO or the UN into Kabul? Are our air-dropped food packages deliberately made to look like cluster bombs— and laced as well with fatty peanut-butter and jelly?

Who are these neocons? Wasn’t the invasion cooked-up years ago for the Likud party? Don’t preempt or be unilateral in Iraq—but who screwed up in not preempting before 9-11? If we strike Saddam Hussein there will be millions of refugees. Thousands of Americans will die. Moderate governments will fall. We will kill millions of Iraqis. The oil fields will go up in smoke. We want only cheap gas—we will cause gas to skyrocket if we go in. Pay the poor Turks—don’t be blackmailed by them. There are far too few troops. It will be a bloodbath—it was a bullying walkover.

Our troops will be gassed; where is the gas? The sandstorm has ruined our momentum; we are in a quagmire. We will lose 3,000 troops taking Baghdad. The coalition is a sham; don’t insult Bulgaria. We protected oil ministries while they looted 180,000 precious objects in the museum.

Why did he strut on the aircraft carrier? Why can’t we find Saddam—why humiliate him with a dental exam? Was it really necessary to show the corpses of his sons? Why were they embalmed? Why isn’t there more electric power? Be careful not to antagonize Sadr—who let Sadr get out of control? We are losing Afghanistan while we fight in Iraq. Rid the country of the Baathists; be careful in disbanding the Iraqi army. The Shiites are our friends—the Shiites are fanatics. Stay loyal to the Kurds; the Kurds are grasping troublemakers. More troops are needed. We need more Iraqis on the street or more of the UN or soldiers from Muslim countries or NATO to the rescue.

Do we remember the revolving door of hysterical critics who have periodically weighed in—a Noam Chomsky, Michael Moore, Norman Mailer, Alice Walker, Barbara Streisand, Al Franken, Jessica Lange, Dixie Chicks, or Tim Robbins? Remember Scott Ritter, those forgettable congressmen who went to prewar Baghdad, and all the assorted Europeans who employed Nazi metaphors to demonize the invasion of Iraq? All of them did their small part to convince us that we were either crazy or immoral for taking out a mass murderer.

We have been fighting two wars all along. The easier one was against the fascists in the Middle East, whom we demolished in Afghanistan in less than eight weeks and routed in Iraq in three—while rounding them up worldwide and preventing another 9-11 attack here at home. But the other challenge? Now that has been nearly impossible to win. For here in the West we are split into two widely divergent groups who disagree about almost everything that has transpired since September 11, a cataclysmic event that apparently exposed a widening fault line.

On the one side are those who believe in Western exceptionalism, the unique menu of individual freedom, personal liberty, consensual government, capitalism, rationalism, free markets, religious tolerance and self-critique. These believe that Western liberalism historically has been the only hope for mankind, inasmuch as it is an evolving concept that allows criticism and change, and incorporates widely divergent religions and races under its singular cultural aegis. Western societies are multiracial, not multicultural as a Rwanda or Iraq, and thus offer divergent peoples the common ground of shared values within the now much maligned nation state.

The West is, of course, not perfect; but its sins are those of mankind, of which it seeks to ameliorate through constant moral questioning. For those who embrace these values, our miracle of security, affluence, and freedom is entirely logical, and of course allows people a level of decency and civility not found elsewhere in the world—whether in the commonplace that means water that doesn’t make you sick, toilet paper in public restrooms, cars that halt at stop signs, and lines that queue up rather than mobs that rush, or in the exalted sense a Bill of Rights, media that are free, and officials who are accountable.

This classically liberal vision is always under assault on the left by utopian totalitarians, devils who demand coercive government powers to force us to be angels, and on the right by autocratic romantics who believe in the superiority of a pure religion, race, or nationality. Thus we must defend the promise of the West and its manifestation in America almost constantly. Indeed, it seems to me in these trying times that the greater sin is for thinking people to remain silent and allow the idea of America to be slurred without retort than it is for the ignorant to so breezily condemn it. We made no claims that we were perfect, only far better than the alternative and thus had the moral obligation and indeed the power and skill to defeat our enemies and preserve our culture.

On the other hand in this great divide at home are civilization’s discontents. Perhaps it is the comfort of Western liberality, affluence, and leisure that has made them so smug, guilt-ridden and hypercritical, inasmuch as so many are so upscale. Or maybe it is a sincere belief that American society is inherently exploitive and believes only in an equality of opportunity rather than their own far more important equality of results.

Many seem aristocratic and resent a radically egalitarian popular culture that caters to those well outside the university, sophisticated media, or the general intelligentsia. After all, America pays a lot more attention to “American Idol” and an array of grasping wannabees on “The Apprentice” than to Guggenheim-prize winners, university-press poets, and independent film-makers. Those who are very skeptical of what America is about seem very unlikely to go to NASCAR, listen to talk radio, join Rotary, or own a plumbing supply business.

For the last three years these most influential Americans among the intellentsia have argued that the United States either should not, or could not, retaliate against our enemies. We lacked both the power and a clear sense of moral right to take the “law” into our own hands and move unilaterally. And so every step of the way, in almost every 24-hour news cycle, we have seen a litany of criticisms about our ability or right to take action. Such fury has been deductive—preconceived distrust of the United States always looking for and finding yet another proof that we are either wrong or weak.

If the former group of defenders of the West accepts the tragic view of mankind—we are all flawed and thus seek to craft a civilization that can ameliorate our more glaring sins in the brief time allotted to us on earth— the latter is surely therapeutic: give us enough money, education, or power and we can create a perfect person who will worship reason rather than a mere religious totem, and thus soon make the world a perfectly fair and equitable place. For some, the pantheon is a Churchill, C.S. Lewis, or Tolkien, for others Michel Foucault and Edward Said.

So now we come to the earthquake of Iraq, and the divide has become a gaping abyss. Yes, there is real controversy over troop levels, the mission and purpose of our stay, and the costs of reconstructing Iraq. But behind the conundrum rest very, very different views of what the West and indeed the world should be. This fight for the future of Iraq is turning out to be for more than a referendum on democracy in the Middle East, but rather a trial of our own culture here at home.


9 posted on 05/07/2004 8:10:48 AM PDT by upchuck (Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm. - W. Churchill)
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To: Ronly Bonly Jones
Well said. There is a cultural divide in this country, and it hasn't been resolved yet.
10 posted on 05/07/2004 8:15:22 AM PDT by Zack Nguyen
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To: quidnunc; seamole; Lando Lincoln; .cnI redruM; yonif; SJackson; dennisw; monkeyshine; Alouette; ...

Dear friends. I am back from sitting shiva for my brother-in-law who died on May 2 at the age of 47.

He left wife and 6 years old daughter, parents and sister (my wife), and many-many friends in America, Ukraine, Israel and Greece.

He came to the US 15 years ago from the old, stinky Soviet Union, started his own small business after a few years, and was happy to have nobody as his boss. He was suffocating the last years in the USSR and was happy to get here. He was a rebellious Jew, loving guns and cigars, coffee and cognac (Metaxa was his favorite). He easily made friends, and was eager to help without being asked. Not surprisingly he had so many friends, because he touched so many. He rarely complained on anything and died totally unexpectedly from a massive heart attack. So many friends came, drove and flew in or called in from a far to share the loss with his family.

He loved, loved life, loved his wife, his daughter was the center of his universe and he was the same for her.

Family and friends, we all are grieving for our dear Mike. Rest in peace, my friend and brother.

Tolik.


11 posted on 05/10/2004 5:48:35 AM PDT by Tolik
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To: quidnunc; seamole; Lando Lincoln; .cnI redruM; yonif; SJackson; dennisw; monkeyshine; Alouette; ...
Now, back to VDH for his so much needed brilliance.

We have been fighting two wars all along. The easier one was against the fascists in the Middle East, whom we demolished in Afghanistan in less than eight weeks and routed in Iraq in three—while rounding them up worldwide and preventing another 9-11 attack here at home. But the other challenge? Now that has been nearly impossible to win. For here in the West we are split into two widely divergent groups who disagree about almost everything that has transpired since September 11, a cataclysmic event that apparently exposed a widening fault line.

On the one side are those who believe in Western exceptionalism, the unique menu of individual freedom, personal liberty, consensual government, capitalism, rationalism, free markets, religious tolerance and self-critique. These believe that Western liberalism historically has been the only hope for mankind, inasmuch as it is an evolving concept that allows criticism and change, and incorporates widely divergent religions and races under its singular cultural aegis. Western societies are multiracial, not multicultural as a Rwanda or Iraq, and thus offer divergent peoples the common ground of shared values within the now much maligned nation state.

The West is, of course, not perfect; but its sins are those of mankind, of which it seeks to ameliorate through constant moral questioning...

Victor Davis Hanson moral clarity huge BUMP  

[please freepmail me if you want or don't want to be pinged to Victor Davis Hanson articles]

If you want to bookmark his articles discussed at FR: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/k-victordavishanson/browse

His NRO archive: http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson-archive.asp

His blog: http://victorhanson.com/index.html     BIO: http://victorhanson.com/Author/index.html

Yes, he is listened by the Bush Administration; they like him maybe as much as we do: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1085464/posts?page=6#6

12 posted on 05/10/2004 5:49:23 AM PDT by Tolik
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To: Tolik
My dear Tolik, I lost my husband at a young 48 in the same sudden shocking manner. It is devastating for all who love. I am so sorry for your loss. Your brother in law, Mike, touched many lives. May he rest in peace. May God comfort all who mourn his loss.
13 posted on 05/10/2004 5:56:57 AM PDT by MEG33 (John Kerry's been AWOL for two decades on issues of National Security!)
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To: MEG33
I appreciate your warm words. The outpour of sympathy we received from everywhere is unbelievable. We are so lucky to live in our community and to have so many good friends.
14 posted on 05/10/2004 6:06:03 AM PDT by Tolik
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To: quidnunc
This fight for the future of Iraq is turning out to be for more than a referendum on democracy in the Middle East, but rather a trial of our own culture here at home.

Excellent article. He's absolutely 100% right on this.

15 posted on 05/10/2004 6:16:41 AM PDT by livius
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To: livius
bump
16 posted on 05/10/2004 6:32:06 AM PDT by prognostigaator
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To: Tolik; quidnunc; seamole; Lando Lincoln; .cnI redruM; yonif; SJackson; dennisw; monkeyshine; ...
FYI
Sunday May 16

John Lewis Gaddis, Surprise, Security, and the American Experience
Watch Sunday on C-SPAN at 8pm/11pm ET
http://www.booknotes.org/home/index.asp
Surprise, Security, and the American Experience
by John Lewis Gaddis



—from the publisher's website
September 11, 2001, distinguished Cold War historian John Lewis Gaddis argues, was not the first time a surprise attack shattered American assumptions about national security and reshaped American grand strategy. We've been there before, and have responded each time by dramatically expanding our security responsibilities.

The pattern began in 1814, when the British attacked Washington, burning the White House and the Capitol. This early violation of homeland security gave rise to a strategy of unilateralism and preemption, best articulated by John Quincy Adams, aimed at maintaining strength beyond challenge throughout the North American continent. It remained in place for over a century. Only when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor in 1941 did the inadequacies of this strategy become evident: as a consequence, the administration of Franklin D. Roosevelt devised a new grand strategy of cooperation with allies on an intercontinental scale to defeat authoritarianism. That strategy defined the American approach throughout World War II and the Cold War.

The terrorist attacks of 9/11, Gaddis writes, made it clear that this strategy was now insufficient to ensure American security. The Bush administration has, therefore, devised a new grand strategy whose foundations lie in the nineteenth-century tradition of unilateralism, preemption, and hegemony, projected this time on a global scale. How successful it will be in the face of twenty-first-century challenges is the question that confronts us. This provocative book, informed by the experiences of the past but focused on the present and the future, is one of the first attempts by a major scholar of grand strategy and international relations to provide an answer.





17 posted on 05/10/2004 7:32:05 AM PDT by Valin (Hating people is like burning down your house to kill a rat)
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To: Tolik
My thoughts are with you, Tolik, in your time of loss.
18 posted on 05/10/2004 7:53:35 AM PDT by metesky (You will be diverse, just like us.)
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To: metesky
Thank you very much.
19 posted on 05/10/2004 7:54:43 AM PDT by Tolik
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To: Ronly Bonly Jones
You know, with the caveat that the percentage shoots up and down occassionally, I think you're right.

I remember a NRO article many years ago which chronicled some of Jeffersons statements vs. his opponent at the time, and I can't remember if it was Madison or Adams, but whoever it was, was lambasted with this 'you are neither man enough to be up to the challenge of leading or woman enough to to demure', I am paraphrasing, mind you. Jefferson's phrasing was much more incisive, I'm sure.

20 posted on 05/10/2004 8:01:21 AM PDT by AlbionGirl ("We sleep soundly at night because rough men are willing to commit violence on our behalf.")
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