Posted on 04/23/2004 4:21:45 PM PDT by Cannoneer No. 4
April 23, 2004: The U.S. Marine Corps is looking for a new .45 caliber (11.4mm) pistol. While the American military retired the M1911 .45 caliber in 1985, some commando units still prefer it. This is because the 11.4mm (.45 caliber) bullet weighs twice as much as the 9mm one that replaced it and still has an edge in "stopping" someone hit with it. But the 9mm M9 pistol magazine carries 15 rounds, versus seven in the M1911. The commandos (Special Forces, SEALs, Marine Force Recon) counter that their operations are the type where every round counts, and the fewer you have to fire the better. For the regular troops, the M9 has been popular, and successful. The 9mm weapon is lighter, has less recoil and has the extra ammo for users who are not sharpshooters.
The Marines want to buy 1,100 new .45 caliber pistols and are having a competition to determine which of several models available will get the $1.9 million contract. The Marines have been using M1911s rebuilt from the many old ones turned in when everyone switched to the M9. But even this supply is running out, and it is known that there are newer .45 caliber designs out there that are more reliable, lighter, easier to repair and more accurate. Some Marines (and other troops) buy these newer .45 caliber weapons with their own money. Most American combat units tolerate troops bringing in some additional weapons, especially pistols. Some troops have been buying 10mm pistols, seeing this as a nice cross between the lighter weight of the M9 (2.55 pounds versus three for the .45) and the greater stopping power of the 11.4mm M1911 bullet. But there are new .45 models that weigh as much as the M9, carry more bullets (10) and are easier to repair than the M1911.
Afghanistan also raised the issue of stopping power once more, when individual troops went into caves or other tight places, where only a pistol could be used. In these cases, every shot counted, and the guy firing larger (like 11.4mm instead of 9mm) bullets was more likely to win. But most troops agree that any arguments over pistols is minor compared to issues involving all the other more frequently used weapons and bits of equipment. Nevertheless, there's something about pistols…
Yeah, some idiots do it.. Most don't know why..
The idea was to use recoil as lateral (sideways) spread of multiple rounds, preferably a full clip..
Preferred target, .... a crowd, or group of people..
There is no accuracy involved, it is basically a "shotgun" effect, and often used from a moving vehicle.
( say, "drive by shooting"..
True enough, with a few added details. Note that the practice goes clear back to the days of flintlocks, when in light drizzle, some shooters would rotate the lock side of their pistol to the bottom for protection from the downcoming elements.
But in more recent times several other rationales can come into play: firing so that your brass is deposited straight down can prevent throwing fired brass neneath a teammate's feet, a really good idea if the one to your side happens to be the one tasked with tossing in grenades or flashbangs and already has the pins out. Or has a flamethrower strapped on his back...
Likewise, the use of gas masks sometimes requires that the operator's rifle be rotated 90º for use so encumbered, and some also apply this to the handgun. The Israelis prefer a *Condition Three* handgun carry with an empty chamber, and teach a *slingshot* cocking method of quickly working the slide with the gun rotated 90º to utilize the maximum strength in the wrist muscles. In all such circumstances, however, the gun should be so positioned as to dump the brass downward, not up.
The use of the full-auto Mauser broomhandle M1932 *Schnellfeuer* turned sideways was indeed a way to keep those guns and their Spanish copies thereof from climbing over a target, and walking tone sideways against multiple hostiles was indeed then acceptable. Likewise the full-auto Star Model D and MD and other fullauto handguns can be more practical so employed with an initial full-magazine dump as an attention getter, followed by a reload and short bursts into individual targets. See following for details.
At another website there is/was a running battle as to whether a .45 could actually 'knock' someone down. All kinds of physics formulas were floated 'proving' that it is not possible plugging in weight, velocity, etc.
Guess your experience kinda disproves their conclusion.
When I was a match armorer at the Naval Weapons Support Center small arms shop at Crane, we got all the Annapolis training guns, .22 conversion kits fitted atop .45 frames, for rebuild. Some of those guns had been reassembled on NM .45 frames, some were on Colt commercial frames, and a few on old M1911 frames, which were replaced due to differences in the disconnector timing with the M1911A1 slide- some of those M1911 frames had 2-digit serial numbers and really belonged in a museum.
We put two magazines of .22 long rifle through each after the pistols were bebuilt and refinished, and cleaned then of the sometimes years of lead buildup in the floating chambers, some of which were virtually soldered together; I wish I could sweat-solder that well when I'm trying to....
The property tag on one was signed out to a couple dozen midshipmen, including one Midshipman James E. Carter. I think that one found its way, complete with tag, to a museum as well. Those guns had seen some really hard use, but of some 1100 guns I think we only scrapped out a couple of dozen frames, replaced with NM M1911A1 frames easily enough. The .22s hadn't beaten them up too badly, but they sure leaded those barrels, some of which we melted out at 425º.
I've carried a Browning GP since 1967, the same one since 1969, with right close to 100,000 rounds through it and only minor replacements- the wooden grips split out at the screw holes and were replaced with green tape initially, a pair of L9A1 Austrailian Hi-power grips eventually. I still carry it sometimes, backed with a .45. Nice combo, and I can hit very well with the 9mm, thank you.
Note though, that the Marines are looking VERY hard at the long-barrelled version of the new H&K XM-8, and are considering a all-hands purchase.
I long carried a 4-inch Charter *Target Bulldog* until a lady friend informed me it was hers now, and what did I want to replace it with. I tried to arrange something involving personal services, but she claimed to be having more fun doing so on an amateur basis, and got me a Star PD instead, sdo no complaints there from me.
I understand Taurus is going to introduce a version of their titanium 5-shot .44 snubby in a .45 full moon version, maybe a .45 Auto Rim chambering as well. We shall see, but that sounds nice.
I actually don't know, and don't want to find out.
But, I had to try it myself. Not good. At least, not good with an M1911. Maybe a .32 would be better.
The .45 Stellar Tracker in .45 ACP is available in 2, 4 and 6-1/2 inch barrels and uses the exclusive Taurus Stellar Clip to hold 5 rounds of the familiar .45 ACP and allows for easy loading and ejection.
I like .45 ACP revolvers.
Yes.
Thats just nasty. And you'd be picking the shot out of all parts of you for weeks if you managed to survive being hit at close range by that load.
Those are CCI #9 shot. Advertised as *1/3 oz./119 grains #9 shot approximately 210 pellets, $7.50/10 pak.* The now discontinued [but I'm pestering 'em] Remington shot cartridge used even smaller #12 dustshot, loaded with approximately 650 of the #12 shot, the same *dustshot* used in .22 long rifle shot cartridges. Since number 12s run about 2475 pellets to the ounce, Remington 's payload weighed just over a quarter ounce, about 4-times as much, and had a reduced-diameter petal crimped *imitation bullet* that allowed them to fire semiauto without adjustment, interchangably in the magazine with other ball and JHP loads. Pull trigger twice, get over 1200 little bitty holes, and/or a real bad case of facial acne.
My first one out of my Commander is a .45 tracer, followed by two jacketed 230-grain *Golden Saber* HPs. After that, a pair of the shot loads, and then a round of .45 ball, another tracer to remind me that I only have two left, and it's time to change mags, then two more of ball. Following which I can choose between one of all ball, all tracer, two of goldies, or one of all shot. Four of them live on a former .38 ankle holster terned magazine carrier, or I can use a belt-level Bianchi 4-pak actually meant for two 9mm double-row mags.
For starters.
Depends on the bullet design and construction. I.e., in rifle bullets varmint style bullets are nearly useless on large game since they (basically) explode on impact and don't have any penetration in spite of velocities in the mid to high 3000's. Likewise, the good old 45/70 with a decent soft or hollow point can give both extreme penetration in large animals with terrific expansion in even shallow depths with less than 2000 fps velocity. Bullets need to be designed for the velocities they will be used at to give maximum energy transfer to the target, and an inappropriate bullet for the velocity will probably give poor performance regardless of caliber. High velocity projectiles have a quality all of their own regardless of style that low velocity projectiles do not have.
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