Posted on 04/22/2004 10:49:24 AM PDT by moondoggie
How come the paperwork on Kerry's Bronze Star Award is signed by John Lehman, Sec. of the Navy????
In addition, the date Lehman (supposedly) signed it is not on the document.
Did Kerry not get the award when Chaffee was Secretary of the Navy? If not, why not?
Did Kerry get the award 15 years late?
Or is the paperwork a "sham" and somebody made a big booboo?
I'll post the document as soon as I find it again. Maybe somebody here has it bookmarked? And, if there's already been a thread on this that I missed....please direct me to the proper thread.
Thanks!
bttt
Please see my post #633. John Lehman who was Secretary of the Navy in the Reagan Administration 5 Feb 1981 - 10 Apr 1987. ADM Zumwalt served as Commander, US Naval Forces Vietnam from Sep 1968-May 1970. ADM Hyland was CINCPAC 30 Nov 1967 - 05 Dec 1970.
You're very right. Kerry threw the medals, not the citations, away. Unless he'd lost the original citation, he'd have no need to get new citations.
Hell, I bought all my medals and ribbons four or five times over as they wore out, or to have one set for my blues and another for my greens, etc. Getting a new set of the actual medals or ribbons is trivial. Getting a new citation... that's just bizarre.
You're right: My dates were off. (Shouldn't have relied on memory - But, then again, I had forgetten where I mislad my last case of Alzhiemer's, so I guess need a new one.)
Thank you for correcting me. 8<)
How common was it to receive a certificate from Zumwalt, and then another from Hyland? for the same medal.
Some editing at the approval level may take place for various reasons,
Was this not uncommon then? And would many of those who have posted their own citations, also have in their possession a second one signed by Hyland? which maybe they don't post?
Zumwalt was probably the approval authority and Lehman for the replacement medal.
Was there a form that someone had to send in to request replacements? Someone asked this, before. But what would it be? What document?
I suspect that bureaucratically, the current SECNAV had to sign a duplicate citation to get the replacment medals issued. As I indicated in post #633, my take is that Kerry requested replacement medals and due to the fact that Kerry was no longer an active duty service member, administrative requirements mandated that SECNAV's office had to approve the issue of the replacements once it was verified from official records that Kerry had actually earned them.
Kerry would have been smart not to release the Lehman signed certificates. I guess he figured no one would pick it up and connect it to his latest denial that he threw his medals away. I hope the GOP drops this on him later in the campaign. An October surprise.
I'm confused about two things, here. A) what did Kerry want amended? Did he change the date of his discharge? Was it '72, and he changed it to '70? Did he ask for that new medal with the four stars? It's on the form 215, correct?
And B) the Silver Star incident itself. I still don't get it. Was it policy to turn into the fire and beach these boats, or rather to run back to a safe distance and take ones chances with the weapon's range? And was the B-40 like a bazooka, that could be reloaded, or a one-shot weapon? They record being hit in the cabin. So one round was fired from the weapon. And some speak of 'twin-50' caliber machine guns. And others speak of 60. It was 50 caliber, correct, which if they hit anyone would not allow them to 'not miss a stride'?
Old news, give it up.
This is a losing battle, save your energy.
The signature of Sec Lehman appears on the battle valor decoration, not on the award itself. It is an update - a records clarification - which happens all the time. There is nothing odd, or inappropriate in this case.
Anything 2 hours old is old news. That's beside the point. I asked some questions about this. Do you know the answers?
It is important not to confuse the citations with the certificates. There is only one certificate per award. As I indicated, there is a standard approval process. I presume Hyland signed the certicate as the approval authority as well as the citiation. Kerry has not released the actual certificates except for his PHs. Zumwalt signed the nomination form, including a draft citation on letterhead paper. Usually the nominator includes language for the certificate and citation on the form as well as a complete write up for the award. If you notice, Hyland only signed the Silver Star citation, not the Bronze Star. Zumwalt probably has approval authority for that level of the award as area commander. The Chief of Naval Personnel signed Kery's PHs certificates in August 1969, all on the same day.
Was this not uncommon then? And would many of those who have posted their own citations, also have in their possession a second one signed by Hyland? which maybe they don't post?
I don't quite understand what you mean by post. The citations and certificates are part of your official personnel record. When you receive the medal, you get a copy of the approved citation and usually the certificate at the same time. Sometimes there is a lag between them, but not often. The PHs seem to be that exception. Kerry has his personnel records so he can provide whatever he wants. Maybe he wanted both Zumwalt's and Hyland's signed citations on his Silver Star publicized.
Was there a form that someone had to send in to request replacements? Someone asked this, before. But what would it be? What document?
The Navy is a government bureaucracy so I am sure there is some sort of request process and form to get replacement medals. The form would be processed using Kerry's official military records. There is a DD215 request form to update your DD214. I suspect Kerry received expedited service as either a LT Gov or sitting senator. I don't know the form number to request replacment medals.
This was brought up MONTHS ago ... the documents are years old.
Yes I do know something about this.
One of my collateral duties was Command Legal & Admin Officer. We routinely received requests from individuals, other commands, the records depository, and vets affairs to confirm dates of service etc. for updates to awards that were sometimes decades old. There is actually a procedure in place for review and update of awards.
The Bronze star, by definition, is a combat valor award, however sometimes the paperwork to attach the 'V' device is not processed appropriately. Someone, probably political, noticed the oversight in Mr. Kerry's service jacket and wanted to ensure that it was as complete as possible. A request was submitted, and approved, for the recognition of the 'V', which by rights should have been done at the time.
This is Normal normal normal .. every day business.
I'm not saying I like Sen Kerry .. I'm just saying to pick a better use of energy in efforts to oppose him.
I believe that this has been discussed before, and the conclusion was that Kerry had requested a replacement. As a matter of fact, I believe that Kerry has had the document replaced twice, for unknown reasons.
Sorry to disagree. The only reasonable explanation for a signed citation by Lehman is that Kerry was seeking replacment medals. What records clarification are you referring to? The bronze star citations signed by Zumwalt and Lehman are exactly the same. The Silver Star citations signed by Hyland and Lehman are exactly the same except for the last line, which is just a slight change in the boilerplate language.
Kerry's bronze star citation signed by Zumwalt states specifically that Kerry "is authorized to wear the Combat "V". Lehman's states "The Combat Distinguishing Device is authorized. What's the oversight? What needs correcting" What was needed to correct the Silver State citation or record?
I have sent my observations to the press, my Republican representatives, and the RNC. I suspect that this issue will not remain old news. I note that you recently joined FR. If you are a Kerry operative, I would be concerned.
You're the first I've seen who said that. Why does nobody else get that? who also served. And what form was submitted? I see a Form 214 and 215. The 214 mentions this "V", but the 215 does not. I think his citations mention the "V" (i.e. "authorized to wear combat 'v'"). And the 214 appears to be from the early '70s. You lost me, here.
request was submitted, and approved
What, when and approved by who? Are these secretive documents that have yet to be made public?
bump
Is that the sense you get reading all that I've written here, in the last week or so? Because I'm pretty sure the Dem don't really think that way. If they do - I'm really missing a bet, here.
You are correct that Kerry's 214 mentions the "V" device. The DD215 does not need to menition it since it is only used to amend what is incorrect on the DD215. Kerry also adds the PUC and NUC unit citations, which were probably approved after he left the service. To me, he is guilding the lilly.
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