Kerry Bronze Star Certificate signature questioned. Investigation warranted?

Kerry's PDF Military Files on his Website ^ | 4-15-04 | me

[moondoggie]

How come the paperwork on Kerry's Bronze Star Award is signed by John Lehman, Sec. of the Navy????

In addition, the date Lehman (supposedly) signed it is not on the document.

Did Kerry not get the award when Chaffee was Secretary of the Navy? If not, why not?

Did Kerry get the award 15 years late?

Or is the paperwork a "sham" and somebody made a big booboo?

I'll post the document as soon as I find it again. Maybe somebody here has it bookmarked? And, if there's already been a thread on this that I missed....please direct me to the proper thread.

Thanks!

[stylin19a]

I STILL have a question regarding his security clearance. I have a security_document.PDF where the security clearance is signed & date stamped 10/29/65.

I haven't been able to find out or figure out why 1965.

[William Tell]

Robert A. Cook, PE said: "All offshore. Does being on leave count?"

Hmm...Where is the confusion?...

Navies do their jobs on the water. The theater of war included the Gulf of Tonkin. One might reasonably wonder how much in harm's way the US Navy was during the VietNam war but then one might wonder how much in harm's way I was while in country. Who makes the decisions and how they make them with regard to campaign inclusion I don't know. But I believe that ships in the Gulf qualified.

[kabar]

Good info. Kerry arrived in-country on November 8, 1968 and left 26 March 1969. He was on combat ops 9 Feb-March 22 1968 WESTPAC and the Gulf of Tonkin on the Gridley 23-27 March 1968 and April 1 to May 5. He arrived on the Gridley 8 June 67.

Based on your info it appears that Kerry earned two stars on the Gridley --Tet Counteroffensive (Army, Navy, USCG): January 30 to April 1, 1968 and Vietnam Counteroffensive, Phase IV (Army, Navy, USCG): April 2 to June 30, 1968

Kerry earned only one star in Vietnam, according to your info. Some more questions for Kerry.

[kaehurowing]

From the Lehman:

"The extraordinary daring and personal courage of Lieutenant (jg) Kerry in atttacking a numerically superior force in the face of intense fire were responsible for the highly successful mission. By his brave action, bold initiative, and unwavering devotion to duty, Lieutentant (jg) Kerry reflected great credit upon himself and upheld the highest tradition of the United States Naval Service."

I thought Kerry shot a single wounded VC in the back as the guy was running away. How is that a "numerically superior force?"

[kabar]

As I mentioned, I would have to see the complete write up for the award, not the one page citation synopsis, to see if the additional language was fabricated. If it is made up or embelished, then it is an issue but not a serious one IMO.

[William Tell]

stylin19a said: "I haven't been able to find out or figure out why 1965 [for security clearance]."

It may be that a security clearance was a pre-enlistment qualification requirement for those with the expectation of attending Officer Candidate School.

[capitan_refugio]

"Odd part about the Lehman signature, they exactly match."

Not really. Lehman's office used a signature stamp. Lehman probably never even saw the document.

[kabar]

Hyland's citation does incude "The extraordinary daring and personal courage of Lieutenant (jg) Kerry in atttacking a numerically superior force in the face of intense fire were responsible for the highly successful mission.

The Lehman citation includes only the following additional statement "By his brave action, bold initiative, and unwavering devotion to duty Lieutentant (jg) Kerry reflected great credit upon himself..." Not too significant in my mind.

[Robert A Cook PE]

Just pointing out that the Gridley wasn't "involved" in the Tet offensive nor the fighting (inshore and on interdiction duty offshore) that the river boats were directly involved in.

Sure.

Sea-lawyer it ("left for Vietnam vice "arrived in theater" adds a few days to the supposed tour of duty. "Left for home" adds a few more days.

Sure, the Gridley did its duty offshore. Somebody had to. Great. Fantastic. I'm glad they did. Realistically, does "1 day" really off-shore mean you really earned a campaign medal?

OK, so it's "legal" that that he qualified for a service star om his ribbon for sitting off-shore drinking coffee and scraping paint while others fought in Tet. There is a Tet campaign recognition. There NEEDS to be one!

But think about it. Isn't it more revealing that Kerry is so deluded that HE THINKS he earned a campaign star by being "off-shore 1 day" ..... Then, abuses his power over the Pentagon to get HSI record OFFICIALLY changed 30 years later to get "his" star?

Remember, Kerry ignored letters warning HIM about slack airport security IN BOSTON BEFORE 9/11... But Kerry ignored those letters. Was he too busy polishing his shrine?
But, WHY IS KERRY SO DESPERATE TO GET his old record changed in the year 2000?

So, 30 YEARS LATER, why go to the DOD and tell THEM to re-write your ancient service history so "you" can add 4 stars to ribbons in a shrine in his Senate office building??

Do "you" want this obsessive, compulsive, self-worshipping, self-centered man to have the key to nuclear bombs?

[Robert A Cook PE]

We can't tell.

[stylin19a]

You just have to be in-country during the campaign. So it appears he is eligible for the 4 stars.

I'm starting to get dizzy with Kerry's dates.
Other resources (The book "Tour of Duty" for one)show Kerry on the Gridley 12/67-6/68. His Gridley orders are unclear when he was to report. And the History of The Gridley show Kerry on it from 6/67-6/68. John Kerry's web site says 6/67 report date.

And I'm sitting here wondering why I'm spending so much time on John F'n Kerry.

[kaehurowing]

"And I'm sitting here wondering why I'm spending so much time on John F'n Kerry."

My sentiments exactly. We can sleuth this to death and unfortunately it means nothing if the media doesn't pick up on it.

We can only hope that someone from the media is willing to pick this issue up and run with it, instead of printing the insipid Kerry Praise Pieces that the New York Times and AP have conjured up. To hear them talk, you would think F'n was the greatest American military member since Audie Murphy.

[stylin19a]

Kerry enlisted in the US Naval Reserves 2/18/66 with status = inactive.(looks like a 6 month deferrment)
It appears they let him get his Yale BA degree 06/66.
He went Active Duty OCS 8/20/66.

He may have had a deferred enlistment dating back to 10/29/65, but i can't find any documentation to that effect.

[FR_addict]

I STILL have a question regarding his security clearance. I have a security_document.PDF where the security clearance is signed & date stamped 10/29/65.

I haven't been able to find out or figure out why 1965.

You found something else strange about his records. Why did he apply for the security clearance in Oct. 65? Anyone have a clue? Like stylin19a says, he was still at Yale.

His initial signature and date is on the last page. His signature appears in a 1966 security form too. He evidently wasn't in the Navy in 65, but his signature was witnessed by someone in the Navy.

[William Tell]

Robert A. Cook, PE said: Sure, the Gridley did its duty offshore. Somebody had to. Great. Fantastic. I'm glad they did. Realistically, does "1 day" really off-shore mean you really earned a campaign medal?

Firstly, you refer to "a campaign medal". What we are referring to is a small bronze service star which is attached to the VietNam Service Medal. One such service star for each campaign during which one served.

I only determined that I was entitled to three stars recently when I ran across mention of my unit on the web. To many of us these things are pretty insignificant.

As we see, to career military and some politicians, every detail is important and could contribute to future success. Because such things are highly valued among the military, there tends to be a high degree of discipline associated with such entitlements. The boundaries of the theaters of war and the dates of each campaign are unambiguously decided.

There can be unusual results from such a system. For example, I vaguely recall hearing that some pilots would volunteer to fly just a single flight to VietNam in order to qualify for a month of combat pay and for the campaign service star for that particular day.

The problem with trying to devise a system with greater requirements is that injustice can be done to the deserving.

For example, if a soldier is wounded and permanently disabled on his first day in country, would that mean that he did not qualify for any campaign star? If the unit this wounded man was in was so decimated by the enemy that it was immediately withdrawn from the theater of war, would that mean that the wounded man qualified but those who were not wounded but who came under fire would not qualify for the campaign star? We should be cautious lest we treat those who are unsuccessful in battle better than those who manage NOT to get wounded.

I vaguely recall some controversy regarding Navy qualification for combat pay and/or campaign service stars. The list of 29 campaigns shows gaps where no Navy campaign is recognized. The Air Force has some campaigns for it alone. Assuming that the Gridley was on station in the Gulf of Tonkin during the times suggested, and assuming that the crew of that ship was entitled to campaign service stars while so stationed, then Kerry is fully entitled to two service stars for that duty.

When it comes to military service, "life ain't fair". Kerry's duty assignments are as described. Bush had what some would consider a cushier assignment stateside and may have found some slack to do political work.

I was stationed in one of the safest areas in VietNam during one of the safest periods.

A buddy of mine with the same training as I had was stationed in London in civilian status at the US Embassy. He was not allowed to wear his uniform and qualified for a clothing allowance. His greatest danger was probably looking the wrong way while trying to cross the street. Like I said, "life ain't fair".

[stylin19a]

There's a story that he tried to get a year deferment to study in Paris. Maybe the 1965 date was the start of that process, until he found out they wouldn't let hin defer a year.

I'm done ! He served. God Bless Him for that.
What he did while he served and what he did after he served
-Oh Luuuucy.....you have some splainin to do

[William Tell]

Robert A. Cook, PE asks: But think about it. Isn't it more revealing that Kerry is so deluded that HE THINKS he earned a campaign star by being "off-shore 1 day" ..... Then, abuses his power over the Pentagon to get HSI record OFFICIALLY changed 30 years later to get "his" star?

All servicemen who served during the specified times are fully entitled to their service stars. All servicemen who have a need to have the military replace certificates describing the medals they have been awarded are fully entitled to request the military to do so.

Kerry is exceptional because he is among a select few who decided to insult the nation they served by throwing their medals on the Capitol steps, symbolically rejecting the legitimacy of such awards.

Further, Kerry is exceptional because he has sought to have certificates replaced which he evidently valued so little at one time that he has lost them. Kerry should be asked what other reason he could have for requesting replacement of certificates. It is odd that the record seems to include all the versions of the certificates.

Still further, Kerry is exceptional because he has sought to have his DD214 amended to include information which was not typically included on that document. I doubt that Kerry would suggest that every VietNam Vet should request that his DD214 be amended to include such information. That is the question I would have him asked. Why would Kerry have his record amended if it is not appropriate for every Vet to have his record amended?

[mtntop3]

The Hyland Silver Star certificate added the glowing sentence you note that was not in the original (Zumwalt); and the Lehman has that Hyland addition plus yet another add-on, glowing sentence.

Both the tone and implication of these, and their combination, significantly differ from that of the original (Zumwalt).

Again: the Hyland and Lehman now state that Lt. Kerry did not just "directly contribute" to the success of the operation but that, explicitly, his "extraordinary daring and personal courage...were responsible..." for it.

Why/how is a Silver Star certificate/citation changed in this manner? As stated earlier on this thread, most of us, and especially veterans, have assumed that a military award/citation was written up for one time and one time only by a single authority. Are we mistaken? We are not dealing here with casual words but with carefully selected words that have meaning and ramifications.

[xzins]

To be honest with you, PM, I think he could have walked into any military clothing store and simply bought them or had a soldier do it for them. A large PX like you'd have at Ft Myer or one of the Virginia military bases would have all of those medals.

I believe the MOH is the only one that isn't kept on the shelf because it's so rare.

Like anything else, medals on a uniform must appear crisp, new, clean, etc., and over time they degrade. That need to refurbish and the need for other copies for multiple uniforms is why they're on sale. The assumption, of course, is that when you buy it that you've earned it.

Heaven help someone wearing unearned medals.

[Las Vegas Dave]

John 'Effin Kerry ping.