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Flight Not Fight (more whiny liberals threaten to leave U.S.)
www.zwire.com ^ | 4/2/04 | By Joy Lanzendorfer, AlterNet

Posted on 04/15/2004 12:55:26 PM PDT by Behind Liberal Lines

Joanna Harmon is considering whether to leave the United States for Canada. Nik and Nancy Phelps practically have visas in hand to set up business in Belgium. Joan Magit and her husband are eyeing Vancouver. Amy Gertz moved to the United States from Canada two and a half years ago – she's now moving back.

These are scary times for progressive Americans. Many feel isolated and embarrassed by the actions of our government. Some are downright terrified at what will happen if Bush is re-elected in November. When politics get too bleak, it's comforting to remind ourselves that we can always move to another country. But how many of us are serious about it?

News sources from CNN to Salon.com to The Daily Show have run pieces about Americans supposedly leaving the United States for other parts of the world. Even some celebrities were rumored to be leaving the U.S. Johnny Depp did – he lives in France. Alec Baldwin, Robert Altman, and Eddie Vedder allegedly threatened to leave if Bush was elected in 2000 (though Baldwin later denied ever saying any such thing).

There certainly has been a lot of talk. But is that all it is – talk?

If Americans are leaving the United States, Canada is certainly one of the most convenient places to go. It may be a little chilly at times, but it's right across the border and most Canadians speak English. Many of the major issues that divide people and political parties in the U.S. seem resolved in Canada. They have a lower crime rate, universal health care, and reportedly better education. Their medical doctors can dispense marijuana and last year they decided to officially recognize same-sex marriages. And, on top of all that, the rest of the world isn't mad at them.

Americans have fled to Canada before. In 1970, during the Vietnam War, roughly 23,000 Americans legally moved to Canada, according to the U.S. Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services. Since then, the number of people who move to Canada every year has dropped steadily, even through the Reagan and Bush I administrations. In the 1990s, the number of people moving to Canada every year leveled out and since then has hovered in the 4,000s and 5,000s.

Which brings us to recent events. According to Canada's Citizenship and Immigration Department, the numbers indicate a slight peak in immigration around 2,000 and 2001, during the election year and the first year of Bush's term, with another slight dip in 2002, after September 11 (when U.S. patriotism was running high and Canada was tightening its immigration laws). However, there's no way to know for sure whether that spike has anything to do with politics. A peak in immigration in 2000 and 2001 could just as easily have to do with the sluggish U.S. economy as it could with people wanting to flee the Bush administration.

Obviously, the Canadian government doesn't track whether people are coming into Canada because of disgruntled political philosophies. And the Canadians I talked to who deal with immigration seemed skeptical that anyone would move to Canada to get away from a dominant party.

But others have noticed a slight change.

"I don't think you could say we've seen a marked increase in Americans interested in moving to Canada," says Colin Singer, a Montreal attorney who specializes in immigration law. "But you could say there has been a slight increase in same-sex couples and Americans under common-law marriage looking at Canada as a place to take up residence."

But whether a few or a lot of people are leaving the United States for another country, some people are definitely doing it. Take Nancy and Nik Phelps of San Francisco, who are moving to Belgium later this year. Nancy says their reasons for leaving the United States are 80 percent about politics and 20 percent about lifestyle change.

"There was a time I felt that we should stay in the U.S. and fight," she says. "Then again, there was a time to get out of Germany during World War II, too. This is that time here. I think the oppression is just going to get worse here. If Bush stole one election, why wouldn't he steal the next one?"

One of the reasons people are thinking of leaving the U.S. is because of a fear of fascism. Whether or not that fear is realistic is debatable, but recent changes like the Patriot Act restricting our rights and dissent being criticized as unpatriotic has weighed heavily on many minds.

Joanna Harmon is an archivist for the Catholic Diocese of Las Cruces, New Mexico. Though she hasn't made up her mind, some of her reasons for considering the move are based in history.

"I specialized in history for my degree," she said. "And I see a lot of parallels between our society and what happened when the Republic became a dictatorship in ancient Rome. I don't want to stay here if it turns into that."

A lot of people who are thinking of moving out of the United States, to Canada or otherwise, are waiting to see what will happen in the November 2004 election. If Bush is re-elected, many plan to start the relocation process. Joan Magit, who lives in Northridge, California, says she and her husband will most likely move to Vancouver if Bush gets in.

"The damage that has been done by this administration, especially in the court system, is a lot worse than people comprehend," she says. "I don't think I will want to live in a country that is so right-wing."

Approximately 20,000 Canadians move to the United States a year, but at least some of them are turning around and moving right back. Amy Gertz was born in the United States but moved to Canada when she was 5 years old. She spent most of her adult life in Canada, but two and a half years ago, she moved back to the United States with her husband. Now at age 50, she has decided to return to Canada, where she will stay for good.

Though she says she would be considered conservative in Canada, Gertz says she's horrified by the differences between the two countries.

"What the heck happened to the U.S. while I was gone?" she said. "I had no idea that I was moving to a corporate dictatorship. I don't want to get caught in the inevitable global backlash, and I feel guilty even just being here."

As someone who knows firsthand, Gertz agrees with many of the things you hear about Canada: It has better schools and stronger health care, does a better job separating church and state, and is more globally minded than the U.S. She also points out that the U.S. is not a "postmodern" country, i.e. it isn't open to a variety of perspectives, recognizing them all as valid.

"America is more extremist, both on the left and the right," Gertz says. "Americans seem unable to manage much compromise. I believe this is one of the reasons we are in the state we are in."

(Excerpt) Read more at zwire.com ...


TOPICS: Canada; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government
KEYWORDS: goodriddance; liberalidiots; solongsuckers
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To: Behind Liberal Lines
I realize the USA will struggle without these valuable people but somehow we will survive.
101 posted on 04/15/2004 1:34:44 PM PDT by teletech (Friends don't let friends vote DemocRAT!)
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To: kcvl
Musician-composer Nik Phelps

"Nik" - short for "Nikita"?

102 posted on 04/15/2004 1:35:21 PM PDT by Inspectorette
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To: Gritty
"Think of living in... Dearborn or Liverpool."

Hey buster, if you are talking Dearborn, MI then you obviously have no experience to base this statement. Now, if you narrow it to East Dearborn, you might be accurate!
103 posted on 04/15/2004 1:38:03 PM PDT by CSM (Vote Kerry! Boil the Frog! Speed up the 2nd Revolution! (Be like Spain! At least they're honest))
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To: HitmanNY
I can imagine the US getting so bad that I would leave, too, so I wouldn't cast stones at these folks.

My problem is, where are freedom loving people going to go? If the U.S.A. ever went under, the entire civilized world would get a wake up call the likes of which has never been seen before. These naive idiots who are living protected and comfortable behind the walls of civilization, while simultaneously denouncing the "watchdogs" who are safeguarding them, would be in for a rude surprise when they got their heads lopped off by the Islmaniacs.

104 posted on 04/15/2004 1:38:37 PM PDT by cmak9 (You can run, but you can't hide.)
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To: Behind Liberal Lines
Any SOB that wants to leave hit the trail with my blessings.
Of course you don't have to worry about Bush being re-elected, he cant.
The deck is stacked and even some in his own party want him gone because the two faces of government are showing.
Bush is not one of the good old boys and the longer he is around the more the truth keeps coming out.
I don't know who is behind the Democrats but they are powerful and control DC.
Everything in the Judicial System has been filibustered or stopped. They cant stand that we are not taxed out of our a## and the Press along with the Democrats and some Republicans fear Busk will end up exposing them.
Look at your powerful elected Democrats and take in who they are and what they represent.
Kerry,Kennedy,Daschle,Dodd Byrd and Leahy. These are the people that will control America if Kerry is elected.
Kennedy,liberal,coward,inept and in the opinion of many a drunk and murderer.Between Kerry, Kennedy and the Clinton's they dealt America's security the most severe blow in our history by dismantling the CIA and FBI. And I must say they had to have help from some the some of the Republicans.
Kerry and Kennedy refused to budget needed money and to upgrade those two agency's so they could funnel 15 Billion to the "Big Dig" in Boston. Most of the money going to insurance companies and unions.
Daschle,calculating and for sale to who has the most money.
Building him and his wife a fortune through her lobbying for the airline industry.I would love to see how much money has been funneled to that group under Daschle and how much he and his wife had returned to them one way or the other.
Leahy, no telling what his leaking of intelligence has caused this nation.Another one of those good old waste and spend liberals, except don't spend it or waste it on the security of our country.
Robert Byrd has probably spent billions on just naming things after himself in West Virginia and borders on being senile. To have as much power as he has he hasn't done anything for the average person in West "By-God" Virginia according to some I have talked with from that state.
Mind you these are just my opinions and I sure wish someone could refute them.
Over in the House we have good old Nancy Pelosi. She votes against the budget and goes bragging out in San Francisco how much bacon she brought them, yes and she voted against it.
Now this is the party of Diversity, the one that speaks of 'Jew Bastards". Say's women under Saddam was better of than under the U.S., said all they had to do was stay out of Saddam and his sons way. Called Ghandi a service station attendant and the beat goes on. Let us not forget Dodd eulogizing 'KKK" Byrd either.
This is the same group the so called "Mainstream Media" is now covering up for in Mirandi Gate.
They have got to get rid of Bush somehow or the other because too much is being exposed on them and the rotten corrupt system in D.C. I am too old and have too much invested to leave and I am ready to take up arms to protect and defend my country against all enemies whether they be foreign or domestic.
105 posted on 04/15/2004 1:38:59 PM PDT by gunnedah
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To: Behind Liberal Lines
Yippee! My sis and I were wondering when and how the next US Civil War (between liberals and conservatives) would come about. We figured that the first thing that had to happen would be that like-minded people would gravitate toward the the same geographical locations. But if THIS happens -- if these idiots actually make a choice to go to Canada -- a Civil War won't be in our future. If they'll just go away then patriots can have our country back.
106 posted on 04/15/2004 1:40:04 PM PDT by MayflowerMadam ((How can I miss you if you won't go away?!?))
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To: Behind Liberal Lines
"America is more extremist.."

"Americans seem unable to manage much compromise..."


i.e. Americans actually have values, actually care about things, actually love their country, actually have honor.
107 posted on 04/15/2004 1:40:28 PM PDT by fshanno
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To: Behind Liberal Lines
I just wish they'd shut the hell up AND LEAVE!With them gone we would have OUR COUNTRY back and hopefully make America a hostile place that NO LIBERAL would ever come to.
108 posted on 04/15/2004 1:43:31 PM PDT by INSENSITIVE GUY
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To: auggy
Oh, Please don't go. We won't have anyone to laugh at.

Indoctrination at public schools assures us that the looney left will always have a never ending supply of useful idiots.

109 posted on 04/15/2004 1:44:25 PM PDT by weegee (Maybe Urban Outfitters should sell t-shirts that say "Voting Democrat is for Old Dead People.")
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To: O.C. - Old Cracker

Oh! Marlo said we're moving.

All I can say, O.C., is thank you for giving the perfect visual for this thread.

110 posted on 04/15/2004 1:46:29 PM PDT by Dane
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To: cmak9
I agree with you. That's not to say there aren't places left to 'check out' quietly if you had to. A nice ranch in western canada, for example, nobody would bother to find you, especially if they weren't looking.

Also the phenomenon you are talking about wouldn't be sudden, and leftists, despite their rhetoric, are not against war and fighting. Actually, the historical record in the 20th century shows they enjoy it! So I think that leftists types would make the civilized world vulnerable, but it's unrealistic to think that even they would just stand there and be attacked over and over without reacting to it.
111 posted on 04/15/2004 1:46:35 PM PDT by HitmanLV (I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.)
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To: Behind Liberal Lines
I agree. Good riddance to them all.
112 posted on 04/15/2004 1:48:09 PM PDT by GOP_1900AD (Un-PC even to "Conservatives!" - Right makes right)
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To: Behind Liberal Lines
"... Take Nancy and Nik Phelps of San Francisco, who are moving to Belgium later this year. Nancy says their reasons for leaving the United States are 80 percent about politics and 20 percent about lifestyle change."

They *want* to be Belgian? SF was too conservative for them, eh?

The Phelps will return. They're giving up the grandeur of the SF Bay Area for a reclaimed mud flat full of humorless half-French alcoholics who think giant white steamed asparagus drenched with mayonnaise is a delicacy. For those who wonder why they've never seen a Belgian restaraunt, you have to have visited there. That's the country that the famously-tolerant Dutch were only too happy to break away from.

That's interesting; my company just hired three Belgians who are really excited about living in the Bay Area.

113 posted on 04/15/2004 1:48:57 PM PDT by The KG9 Kid (Semper Fi)
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To: Noumenon
LOL
114 posted on 04/15/2004 1:50:10 PM PDT by GoLightly
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To: Squawk 8888
Shhhh, you do not want to discourage any of them.
115 posted on 04/15/2004 1:51:43 PM PDT by GoLightly
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To: MrB
Major bump.
116 posted on 04/15/2004 1:51:57 PM PDT by GOP_1900AD (Un-PC even to "Conservatives!" - Right makes right)
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To: Behind Liberal Lines
That is wonderful news. Every single country in the world is more liberal than us except maybe Israel. There are hundreds to choose from. Can those of us who wish to live free have a country too? Let us just have one country in all the world.Thank you.
117 posted on 04/15/2004 1:55:20 PM PDT by normy (Your through news Nazi. No News from you. NEXT!)
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To: kcvl
Well maybe it would not bring Frank Jordan back as mayor, but it would be nice for these jacka$%es to be replaced by some GOP newcomers. One can only hope!
118 posted on 04/15/2004 1:56:54 PM PDT by GOP_1900AD (Un-PC even to "Conservatives!" - Right makes right)
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To: belmont_mark
I've got two questions: Where do we go if Hillary is elected? If we don't go, what do we do?
119 posted on 04/15/2004 1:57:22 PM PDT by OregonRancher
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To: Skooz
Sometimes, I wish we *would* follow the course of ancient Rome, and that the legions would march into the occupied Bay Area and liberate us from the Leftist incursion! ;)
120 posted on 04/15/2004 2:00:30 PM PDT by GOP_1900AD (Un-PC even to "Conservatives!" - Right makes right)
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