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Uncertain Future for the Serbian Refugees
Balkanalysis ^ | 04-08-04 | Christopher Deliso

Posted on 04/08/2004 9:24:05 AM PDT by MarMema

According to the Serbian government, the Albanian riots of March 17-19 in Kosovo resulted in 9 Serbs killed, 143 wounded, 15 missing, and 3,205 displaced. Hundreds of homes were destroyed, and 15 towns and villages ethnically cleansed. Most important of all for Serbian culture, 35 churches and monasteries were destroyed and 3 cemeteries desecrated.

Eyewitness reports indicate that the Albanian mobs were armed with machine guns, AK-47's, pistols, rifles, and hand grenades, not to mention rocks and improvised cluster bombs (Molotov cocktails filled with nails). An informed source claims that four of the Serbs killed had been shot by illegal "dum-dum" bullets that fragment within the body, causing an excruciatingly painful death. Others were knifed or burned alive by the rampaging mobs made up of Albanian men from their early teens into their 80s.

After discussing the riots' organization and goals, I will give the reader a glimpse into the human side of the catastrophe, by citing testimony from some of the refugees I met last week in Kosovo.

The Riots: Organized or Not?

Despite the media whitewashing and contrary to other conjectures, the Kosovo riots were not the spontaneous outcome of the Albanians' righteous rage and grief. Rather, they were well-planned, well-supplied terrorist attacks masquerading as popular marches, carried out with the complicity of the Albanian KPS (Kosovo Police Service) and with the blessings of top figures in the Kosovo Albanian leadership, organized by the successor organizations of the Kosovo Liberation Army and its various youth factions.

Both Macedonian and Serbian intelligence officials have detailed evidence to support this assertion. Eyewitness testimony also confirms that Albanian KPS officers actively participated in leading the riots. The range of weaponry employed, and the fact that buses, vans, and taxis were all mobilized to transport tens of thousands of Albanian rioters reveal the organized nature of the campaign.

International officials agree. "Let's be realistic," Tracy Becker, the UNMIK regional media officer in Mitrovica told me last week. "It's impossible to have Kosovo-wide riots without organization." Another UN spokesman said the same back on March 18, according to the Scotsman: "…this is planned, coordinated, one-way violence from the Albanians against the Serbs… nothing happens spontaneously in Kosovo."

The Strategy of the Pogrom

Oliver Ivanovic, a member of the Kosovo Parliament Presidency, told me on Wednesday that the riots were "…very well organized. Simultaneous attacks on 15 different places can only be done if you have strong logistics and coordination. It was all in accordance with a plan."

The plan, according to Ivanovic, was strategic:

"…first they threatened to attack North Mitrovica, which they never intended to take – too many Serbs are there. But this maneuver did succeed in pulling the international soldiers north, and leaving central Kosovo empty and undefended. The Albanians were thus able to attack those Serbian settlements much more easily."

The city of Mitrovica, divided by the Ibar River, is the borderline between the Albanian-dominated bulk of Kosovo and the purely Serbian northern corner of the province bordering on Serbia proper. The population of the northern side has swelled from 8,000 to 12,000 in the last five years, as Serbian refugees from other parts of Kosovo flock there. Even though they are heavily armed and vastly outnumber the Serbs, the 60,000 Albanians of the south know that they cannot take it, and therefore don't try.

"Cleansing" Central Kosovo

Thus, rather than concentrate their attack on the northern Serbian stronghold, the Albanian mobs chose to devastate isolated Serb settlements populated mostly by poor, elderly farmers left entirely defenseless by five years of UNMIK weapons collections. Yet the colonial administration does not dare to disarm the Albanians, for fear of provoking retaliatory violence.

Several examples from this latest wave of ethnic cleansing support the theory. South of Mitrovica, the Serbian population of the farming village of Svinjare was expelled, with 140 houses ruined. The scene was "absolutely heartbreaking," said one international official, who added that local Albanian perpetrators had started spray-painting their names on the charred ruins to mark their new "property."

I saw an example of this in Obilic, a village further south, near Pristina, where an Albanian man had spray-painted his name on a burned Serbian home. All around were charred ruins of houses, smashed furniture, and dead pigs, everything of value stolen. Out of the wreckage a playful dog ran up to me, yapping in front of what was once his master's home. He was guarding it from intruders, perhaps. But there was no longer any need.

Obilic was once an ethnically mixed village; directly adjacent to these destroyed houses were the untouched homes of Albanians. I saw one Albanian boy, no older than six, looting firewood from the gutted home of his former neighbor. In the street, we were met by the long, suspicious stares of grouped men defiantly proud of their crimes and unwilling to tolerate any mention of them.

Purging central Kosovo of Serbs was important because the second-largest grouping of enclaves is located there. The village of Caglavica, which was one of the first places attacked, has good soil, and is on the main north-south road from Pristina to Skopje. It is also the first village that guards the largest remaining Serbian enclave in the area, that of Gracanica and its outlying villages. The area has strategic position, comprises a large area of high-quality farmland, and remains a chronic thorn in the side of Albanians striving for an ethnically pure Kosovo.

Other villages in the Pristina area that were decimated include Ljipljan and Kosovo Polje (though some Serbs remain in one corner of the latter town, under KFOR protection). In the capital, Pristina, the entire remaining Serbian population was completely expelled. Although before the NATO bombardment of 1999 some 40,000-50,000 Serbs lived in Pristina, by 2004 only about 150 remained. These survivors were relegated entirely to one apartment block. The mobs took care of them on March 17.

The First Goal: Sever Connections with the Outside World

According to Ivanovic, this pattern of ethnic cleansing indicates that the Albanians' goal was "…to push the remaining Serb settlements away from the major roads and railways, and so isolate them from the outside world. This is very easily seen when you look at exactly which villages were targeted."

The Serbian villages of central Kosovo that were spared, such as Priluzje (located a few miles north of Obilic), have, however, lost contact with the outside world. As of last Tuesday, the train connecting them with the town of Zvetcin to the northwest of Mitrovica had been suspended for 10 days. This train represented their only means of getting supplies from Serbia proper. Now, no one knows when the train will resume, but the villagers fear they cannot travel safely without UN police escorts. Some Greek police were present on the train for two years, villagers said, but recent NATO downsizing has meant the elimination of that program.

Meanwhile, shop supplies dwindle, and listless teens file up and down the village's dusty main street. "We have all finished our high school studies," said one 17 year-old boy, "But we can't work, and we have nothing to do."

When asked whether he planned to stay and fight when the inevitable Albanian attack comes, the teen wistfully replied, "…we would like it if you could take us to America with you." So much for that much-feared "Serbian nationalism."

The Second Goal: Prevent Any Returns by Destroying Churches

One of the main promises of the UNMIK administration is that all refugees will be returned to Kosovo as part of its "Standards Before Status" conditions for eventual independence. "Yet what's strange," adds Oliver Ivanovic, "is that there were 35 churches destroyed in 2 days. In the 5 years before that, 118 churches were destroyed. All of the churches in Prizren were destroyed, because its previously displaced Serbs are supposed to be brought back there this year."

In this light, the ethnic cleansing of Serbs from hardcore KLA country in the south near Prizren and in the west near Djakovica and Pec become more understandable. Since a mark of any civilization is the presence of cultural monuments, the massive destruction of Serbian churches in this area shows the true intent of the Albanian militants. The western half of Kosovo is known to Serbs as "Metochia," a Greek word denoting church property. The wholesale destruction of Serbian churches and monasteries since 1999 and which accelerated last month betrays the desire to eliminate a whole people's history, culture, and right to exist.

Prizren, which had featured age-old mosques next to churches and a beautiful historic town, was hardest hit. It was described to me as a "little Jerusalem" by one resident Arab, and as "the most beautiful town in the former Yugoslavia" by a Serb. In 2002, it was listed as one of the world's 100 most endangered sites by the World Monument Fund. Among the other priceless churches destroyed was the 14th century cathedral of The Holy Virgin Ljeviška, one of the world's most important monuments to Byzantine art. On March 26, Bishop of Kosovo Artemijie lamented:

"…how can people destroy a city in which they themselves are living? How can they calmly sit on benches and nonchalantly stroll in front of burning churches whose ruins stink of urine and feces left behind by the attackers? Where did such barbarity at the dawn of the 21st century come from, barbarity promoted not by some small group of extremists but by thousands of people who destroyed centuries of culture and civilization in their campaign of destruction?"

Pristina's Refugees

Some of the 150 Serbians expelled from Pristina on March 17 are currently being housed in an elementary school gym in Gracanica. The scene there is gloomy; cots lined up against the walls, black plastic bags of donated clothes and provisions, tinny music emanating from a little clock radio. Old people lay crouched in their beds while the few small children try to shoot baskets to entertain themselves. My local guide and I sat down to talk with one group of refugees, and instantly hospitality materialized in the form of Turkish coffee made on a plug-in burner. In Kosovo, even people who have nothing left want to give.

According to the refugees, who were all living in the same high-rise apartment block on the western edge of Pristina, the trouble began shortly before dark on Wednesday, the 17th of March. An old woman recalls standing on her balcony and seeing smoke and fire in the distance. She ran to her neighbor to tell her "Something is burning in Kosovo Polje!" This inferno and the arrival of a crowd of Albanian toughs at around 7:30 frightened the Serbs. "And so," the refugee went on, "we began to gather the most necessary items and documents, just in case."

By 8:30, the mob had multiplied to several hundred. It was made up of armed men and boys of all ages. They were chanting the standard rallying cry of the former Kosovo Liberation Army ("UCK! UCK!"), and soon had broken the windows of all the first-floor apartments with rocks and shotgun shells. Witnesses saw taxis and vans continually bringing more and more Albanians in, some of whom they recognized from the neighborhood. According to the refugees, the rioters were enabled by four or five Albanian KPS officers, who invited them to come closer and also threw Molotov cocktails at the trapped Serbs. When someone desperately rang up the UN Police to report the emergency, the officer who answered "…just laughed and said, 'we have a patrol in the area.'"

The situation became much more serious after the power was mysteriously cut at 9 PM. This seemed like a cue for the rioters to begin charging the building. They blocked off all the entrances, and began firebombing Serb-owned cars outside the building and then the structure itself. When the power came on again at 10 PM, the people trapped in the building turned off all lights and lay on the floor, intermittently peeking out the windows to see what was happening.

Surviving the Siege

"Was it just a coincidence that the electricity was cut at the same moment they started their attack?" asks another refugee, Tanya Vudatovic. Until the riots, Vudatovic had been working in a Pristina NGO. It was difficult, and sometimes dangerous, but she felt safe enough. Not anymore.

"For five years," she recounts, "we were locked inside a building and subjected to constant surveillance and hostile stares from our Albanian neighbors. Even if you went downstairs to a shop, they were constantly watching you. We didn't even go out after dark. Yet even through all that, we still thought maybe we can live together. Not now."

Despite nearly having been killed by the Albanian mob, Vudatovic and the others are this evening enjoying a laugh with an Albanian colleague working to develop multi-ethnic radio. He had happened to be visiting them on the night of the riots, when Vudatovic and 32 others huddled inside an apartment barricaded by metal bars and marked by an OSCE sign. "Hiding behind such signs has been one of our tricks for survival," said Vudatovic. The presence of the metal bars, she is convinced, is the only reason they survived the attacks.

At around 11 PM, KFOR arrived with 2 vehicles. They passed across the front side of the apartment building and, while they remained, the crowd fell back. This detachment was soon replaced by a UN armored vehicle. The Serbs thought that they had been saved, and some made the mistake of opening their doors. But the peacekeepers inexplicably left after 15 minutes, and the mob regained strength, breaking into the building and baying for blood.

All in all, the rioters ransacked around 30 apartments and burned 4 others, according to the residents. Incredibly, no Serbs were killed, probably because they had taken shelter together in a few well-fortified apartments, placing tables, chairs, and anything heavy in front of the doors. However, had the peacekeepers not returned around 1 AM, many people would surely have died of fire and asphyxiation.

The arriving UN police soon found themselves under attack. The mob was furious at being stymied in their attack. But the police managed to break through the rioting crowd and started sweeping from the top floors down. A young mother named Vesna reveals the vital role American policemen played in the rescue:

"…one of them took my son, and the other, a female officer, tried to run with me towards the bus. She shielded me with her body, because the Albanians were shooting at us from all directions. When we got to the bus she pushed me down against the vehicle, blocked me from the bullets and saved my life."

Meanwhile, Vudatovic and the others in the barricaded apartment below waited it out. "Even now when I lie down," she says, "I can still hear this roaring sound in my ears… it's very hard to explain what it was like, sitting in a corner in the dark, begging God to help you." When I ask for her to attempt a description anyway, she recounts:

"…we could hear the mob gathering outside the door. They were calling for me and my sister, shouting, 'Where are the two Serbian bitches?' We were covering the mouths of the children so they wouldn't scream. Out of the people in the apartment, only 4 were men, and all were unarmed. The Albanians would have killed all 33 people inside that room.

…then we heard someone screaming for help. After a few minutes of hearing his cries, one woman said, 'I can't stand it, we have to help him.' So we removed the furniture blocking the door, went out in the hall and found a 34 year-old Serbian man covered in blood. He had been stabbed in the head. At that moment three Irish KFOR soldiers came running up the stairs. It was just a matter of seconds. They said to us, 'We don't have time! Go, go!' But the entranceway was engulfed in flames, and we had to run through the fire in order to get out."

The Story from Kosovo Polje

A few miles west of Pristina, in the little town of Kosovo Polje, Albanian rioters burned the post office, a restaurant, a hospital, and scores of houses, driving the Serbs away from the main road bisecting the town and railroad station. A British SFOR tank hastily imported from Bosnia now stands guard over the town's imperiled church, although it's unlikely that this nominal force of teenaged soldiers will be able to stop any determined attackers.

One refugee, a middle-aged man whose house was located behind the Post Office recounted what he saw:

"…first, they took my nephew's car from the garage and burned it. We saw how they were throwing rocks at the Serbian houses. We all stayed indoors. But one old man who was caught outside while cleaning his house with his wife was kicked down by the mob. The Albanians let his wife go, but they lit the man on fire and burned him alive right there."

This witness, whom I encountered in a "safe" part of the (still) ethnically-mixed town, was remarkably composed considering what he had witnessed, and considering that the perpetrators were less than a mile away. He added:

"…my elderly uncle was stabbed by Albanians as he was trying to run from a neighbor's house into his own. Luckily we were near enough to see him, and we saved him. But the KPS Albanian police saw them attack him and did nothing."

Eventually, the Serbs were evacuated by three of their ethnic kin who happened to work in the KPS. But these policemen could not save their homes from the Albanian mobs that moved methodically from house to house in groups of 30, looting, pillaging, and burning.

I asked the Kosovo Polje man, standing with some friends outside a little shop in the protected end of the town, what he envisions for the future. After all, he told me that he also owns an apartment in Belgrade – but has nevertheless chosen to remain in Kosovo:

"…after these five years, we thought it might be possible to live together. We had started to shop in Albanian stores, to walk more freely in the streets. Now there is no chance for that. Still, we had imagined the mob would stop at burning vehicles and big buildings – not houses or people. KFOR has taken all our weapons from us – only if they allow the Serbian police to return can we be saved."

The End for Obilic

In the village of Obilic, as in Pristina, the entire Serbian population was expelled. I met several refugees from the village now being housed in Priluzje, a Serbian village a few miles to the north. One middle-aged woman made homeless by the riots gave her testimony:

"…at 10:30 AM on Thursday the 18th we left our house, my daughter and I. A neighbor took us in the van with them. We didn't have time to take anything, only the clothes on our back. There were over 1,000 Albanians coming towards us, burning and shooting."

I asked the woman whether she hoped to return to her village someday. She replied, "No, I have no wish to go back to Obilic. I will stay here if Priluzje survives, and if our Serbian army and police arrive to protect us, since KFOR does not seem able to do so."

A very old man, bearded and with a gravelly voice, recounted how he has been expelled from Obilic 4 times since 1999, when his home was first burned by Albanians. After that, he moved into a neighbor's house. When that was burned down, too, he was moved into a new building, and then into a camp in Pristina. He claims that since the camp was also used by KFOR for storing gasoline, "…the smoke choked us, we felt sick, and I got an infection in my veins."

Like many other refugees, the old man declares that "What I'm wearing now is all that I have." Nevertheless, there is some of the old Serbian obstinacy left in him:

"…I will go back to Obilic if there is safety, and if they rebuild our houses. But if they're not capable, let us bring in our own security and police forces."

Another elderly man, Slobodan, is temporarily housing these Obilic refugees in the home of his children and grandchildren. "I am 83 years old," he says, "I have lived through 3 wars, and it has never been harder for the Serbian people than it is now. In the past, our enemies weren't killing children, women, and old men, and destroying churches. How can we live if we aren't allowed to defend ourselves, and no one else will?"

The next day, back in Gracanica, my guide and I give a lift to a Serbian man carrying a heavy box of humanitarian supplies. Turns out that he's a refugee from Obilic too, being sheltered now within the enclave. When we describe the ruins we'd photographed in Obilic, the man recognizes one as being his former house. "Did you happen to see my dog?" he asks, hopefully, and describes the same mutt that'd been yapping around my feet the day before. "Ah! He lives still!" beamed the refugee.

Now, the UN administration in Kosovo claims that the peace has been restored. But no one can know for sure. For Serbian victims of ethnic cleansing and for those others whose villages survived the latest attacks, waiting is the only option. Yet since everyone knows the NATO forces are too few, and the Serbian minority too vulnerable, there's little reason for optimism. Their safety can only really be guaranteed by re-introducing Serbian troops to Kosovo. However, such a decision would cause instantaneous all-out war from the Albanians. And so, since no one is willing to risk the unthinkable of war for the sake of a few straggler Serbs, their gradual elimination will forestall the need for any such decision. And so will that other unthinkable – ethnic cleansing in the heart of Europe – be quietly tolerated by the West's would-be guarantors of civil society and human rights.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: balkans; brzezinski; kosovo; muslims; religiouscleansing; serbia
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To: kimosabe31
You and Ronly Bonly Jones are two peas in a pod. He is a Catholic who calls Wraith and me "serbonazis" and hates Serbs and Orthodox. You call us "nazis" and apparently hate Croats and Catholics. I guess that means we're neutral? (BTW, neither of us is Croat or Serb.)
41 posted on 04/13/2004 12:36:30 AM PDT by wonders (Whoever said "All's fair in love and war" probably never participated in either.)
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To: kimosabe31
One does try to be charitable, especially during Great Lent.
Thank you for your words of wisdom.
42 posted on 04/13/2004 12:38:19 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: Wraith; MarMema; DTA
Oh dear, this is very sad for me. Sad because I think I sort of understand where both Wraith and MarMema are coming from. (And both of you, please correct me where I'm wrong!)

On MarMema's part, I understand how smug and self-righteous expat Croats can sometimes be. How the denigration of Orthodox Serbs grated painfully on her raw nerves. I've felt exactly the way MarMema did in that situation at times. I also understand how painful it is that the Vatican has been exceedingly sympathetic towards Croatia and the Croats, while ignoring the gross mistreatment and human rights violations against their Serb minority. I have felt the same, even sometimes angry. Also that the Pope has been silent about the mistreatment of the Serb minority in Kosovo.

For Wraith's part, I understand his sense of outrage about ethnic hatreds, especially after his experiences in Croatia. (And beneath that outrage, sadness, just as beneath MarMema's outrage there is sadness.) He was there at a time and in a place when the most brutish lot of Serbs in the RSK were turned loose to inflict whatever violence they could against the Croat minority within their power. The RSK leadership was not comprised of nice guys, to put it mildly. Most of their own "people" (the Serbs living within the RSK) were disgusted with them. Also, it is natural that one would take exception when the Pope is again criticized, as there really is so much Pope-bashing on FR. We Catholics get raw nerves, too, even those of us who sympathize with the Orthodox and admire them. Also, Wraith has probably been in places where the conflict and the suffering is even greater than in the Balkans. So have I (Cambodia).

Now for my part: I don't feel the outrage either way at the moment. Only the sadness beneath. (Not to say I haven't felt outrage before, I certainly have! And I may well again.) I (Anglican/Episcopalian at the time) was on the verge of converting to the Catholicism, having felt a strong pull toward the Catholic Church for many, many years, when I was instead sent to Croatia. I was deeply saddened and sometimes appalled at the state of the Catholic Church in Croatia. The "Catholic Church" there seemed not Catholic or Christian at all. It was, rather, vigorously nationalistic. My devoted Catholic friends who were internationals were similarly appalled, and could not stomach attending Mass in the local Catholic churches. The homilies were inevitably venomously nationalistic. When possible, my friends travelled to Hungary to attend Mass. And the hateful comments of the Croatian Catholic Bishops broadcast on HTV on (Catholic) Christmas Day of 1997, actually preaching unforgiveness! That really took the cake, and proved to me it wasn't just local priests who had total disregard for Our Lord and His message.

I could write many paragraphs about what I found disturbing in the Catholic Church in Croatia.

To be fair, some of the few Orthodox priests there were in RSK were pretty nationalistic, too, though I did not hear them preach hatred and unforgiveness of the sort the Croatian Catholic priests sometimes did. They did participate in propaganda intended to instill fear and horror of Croats in Serbs, however, which distorted the truth of some events, and sometimes in the process they flat-out lied. I did not notice anything of that sort in the Orthodox priests of Serbia, and found no fault in them.

I have been concerned that the Pope has seemed to only encourage the Croats and Catholic Church in Croatia, when they seem to me to be rather in need of admonition. I am grieved that the Vatican encouraged the cause of Croatian independence, along with Germany, starting back in the 80s. Anyone who knew anything about the former Yugoslavia knew this would result in a bloody civil war in both Croatia and BiH. It might have been accomplished peacefully with great patience, attention to protection of the minority populations, and a continuation of a sort of economic federation among the Republics after independence. But, sadly, none of these points were attended to, and patience was sorely lacking.

Given that the Ustasa years in Croatia were among the Catholic Church's darkest chapters, one would have hoped the Holy Father would have been more circumspect, would have kept a sharper eye on the Croatian Catholic Church. My bitter disappointment in the Pope's words and actions concerning Croatia, which seemed to me to amount to condoning the unChristian attitudes and words of Catholic clerics in Croatia and the despicable treatment of the Croatian Serb minority, kept me out of the Catholic Church for many more years.

At least the Pope did condemn the NATO bombing of Serbia and appeal for it to stop. Still, he publicly declared his concern for the Albanian IDPs and refugees during the media hype in 1999, while he seems to have remained silent about the Serb IDPs and refugees following the NATO intervention in all the years since.

As for this Easter message from the Pope, I, too, am a bit disappointed that he made no mention of the recent violence in Kosovo. I also understand that he could not mention every conflict in the world. The current bloodshed in Africa, Iraq and the Holy Land is greater than the recent violence in Spain and Kosovo. He did speak against terrorism, which I am certain applies to all terrorism, whether in Spain, Indonesia, the Philippines, Kosovo, or wherever. His appeal for peace among the among all the children of Abraham applies equally to the Christians and Muslims living in Kosovo and Macedonia and those living in Middle East, South Asia and Afica.

It must be remembered that no Church is perfect, as all Churches are made up of imperfect human beings. (Still, as a Catholic, I am going to write my letter to the Pope to express my concerns.)


Again, to be fair, has Patriarch Pavle spoken out against violence against Catholics in Indonesia or the Philippines? I don't know whether he has or not. And I'm not saying he necessarily should. But those Orthodox who criticize the Catholic Pope for not condemning the violence against Orthodox by Muslims in Kosovo must ask themselves if they hold their own Patriarchs to the sames standards of speaking out and condemning violence perpetrated by Muslims against Catholics.

Catholics, of course, can always criticize their Pope. ;)

I only wish that Catholics and Orthodox and all Christians would concentrate on what we have in common, to look upward toward the True Head of shared our Faith as Christians, rather than further bashing at the poor broken Body of Christ. (As Christians, we are the Body of Christ! Why, oh, why do we bruise one another so?). Our gnashing and bashing does no good. I find great Truth and Beauty in the Orthodox Faith, and am a great admirer. I am a (very new!) Catholic, but I could easily have been Orthodox.

I simply feel so very sad.
43 posted on 04/13/2004 2:55:57 AM PDT by wonders ("Do whatever He bids you" -- Mary, Mother of God)
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To: MarMema; kimosabe31
I did not find his/her words in the least wise. Sorry.
44 posted on 04/13/2004 2:58:15 AM PDT by wonders (Preach the Gospel Always. And when necessary use words. -- St. Francis of Assisi)
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To: MarMema
Either leave us alone or prove you really do want to be sister churches.

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. I would prefer the latter, of course.

Seems to me like he only wants to be buddies when he needs new converts in Russia and Alexy won't let him come for a visit, or he's on a power grab in Ukraine.

I need to learn about this. Can you direct me to information?

I don't think the Catholic Church should be actively trying to convert Orthodox Christians in Russia or Ukraine or anywhere else. I do think that the Catholic Church should be able to send clergy and do whatever is necessary for the pastoral care of Catholics in Russia and Ukraine or whatever country.

There are already Catholics in Russia and the Ukraine, families who have been Catholic for many generations. I attended the funeral of my mother-in-law's best friend who was Catholic in St. Petersburg, and there were many old graves in the Catholic cemetery there. Many of the people attending the funeral and also the Mass on the 40th day after her death (which I also attended) were Orthodox, or nominally Orthodox.

The Orthodox Russians I knew had no problem whatsoever with a visit from the Pope or Catholic clergy being sent to Catholic Churches in Russia. They had a lot of problems with letting in all those dubious non-denominational "Protestant" groups and the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., who were flocking into Russia and causing lots of confusion.

Perhaps things have changed since I was there and I would like to learn more.

45 posted on 04/13/2004 3:27:09 AM PDT by wonders
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To: wonders
Patriarch Pavle has not sought to be a sister church to the RC.

My point is hypocrisy.

46 posted on 04/13/2004 8:38:01 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: kimosabe31
What hole did you come out of? Trying crawling back into it you domesticated moron, then crawl out of it in about 10 years when you have something intelligent to say.......
47 posted on 04/13/2004 8:42:33 AM PDT by Wraith (He who defends everything, defends nothing. Napoleon.)
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To: wonders
A great post wonders that puts the issue in the right prospective which needs to be said in light of all the anger and hate out there. Truly A great post!
48 posted on 04/13/2004 8:52:50 AM PDT by Wraith (He who defends everything, defends nothing. Napoleon.)
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To: MarMema
Its not hypocrisy you should worry about its your own stupidity!
49 posted on 04/13/2004 8:55:45 AM PDT by Wraith (He who defends everything, defends nothing. Napoleon.)
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To: wonders
Thanks for your honesty about Croatia. You are the kind of RC I could be a sister to.

"ZBIGNIEW BRZEZINSKI TO ACCOMPANY POPE TO UKRAINE RRN -
by Dmitry Safonov - strana.ru, 2 May 2001 -

Ivan Rudnitsky, executive director of the organizing committee for planning the pope's visit to Lvov, reported that up to 200 honored guests will come to the city. Among others, an invitation was sent to Zbigniew Brzezinski, an American political scientist who is an honorary citizen of Lvov. Brzezinski, an American of Polish descent, was born in 1928. He occupied the office of national security advisor to American President Jimmy Carter from 1977 to 1981. At the present time he is a consultant with the Center for Strategic and International Studies and a professor of American foreign policy in the School of Modern International Studies in Johns Hopkins University in Washington, DC. His disciple, Madeline Albright, is the current (sic) American secretary of state. He is the author of the books "Out of Control," "The Grand Failure," "Game Plan," "Power and Principle," and "The Great Chess Board." On Brzezinski's initiative the USA supplied the Afghan Mujahadin the most modern weapons, financed by billionaire Usama ben Laden.

Brzezinski is the author of the doctrine according to which Ukraine, in contrast to Russia, is viewed as a part of western civilization. In Brzezinski's doctrine Ukraine is assigned the role of buffer between East and West. In this regard, according to Brzezinski's view, Ukraine should be taken under the patronage of the West and after 2010 there should begin a process of drawing Ukraine into the European and Euro-Atlantic structures. As strana.ru analysts have noted, the "Brzezinski plan" entails in particular the formation of a permanent guided conflict between Russia and Ukraine. In connection with this the creation of a religious conflict between Russian and Ukraine and the conduct of actions directed against the Ukrainian Orthodox church of the Moscow patriarchate are integral parts of this plan. Brzezinski is known as a russophobe and hater of the Orthodox church. The pope's visit plays no small role in the "Brzezinski plan."

After the part of the "Brzezinski plan" that included the smooth transfer of power from President Kuchma to ex- premier Yushchenko failed, the pope's visit became especially important for Brzezinski's group. Most likely, Brzezinski will accept this invitation and will come to Ukraine in order to join personally in the implementation of his plan. We recall that the final dates for the visit to Ukraine by Pope John Paul II were set for 23-27 June of this year. Several representatives of the leadership of Ukraine showed special interest in the pope's arrival. Now former vice premier Nikolai Zhulinsky has noted that "the pope's visit is intended to achieve mutual understanding and reconciliation and a consciousness of the need for a revival of relations between the Orthodox church and the Roman Catholic church." However, with which Orthodox church will the Roman pope establish relations?

The letter from members of the Holy Synod of the Ukrainian Orthodox church says that "not a single one of the clergy of our church will take part in the schedule of the visit." Some representatives of the power structures of Ukraine understand "Orthodox church" to mean the schismatic groups of Filaret Denisenko (UPTsKP) and the autocephalists (UAPTs). Recently this false patriarch organized around himself a group of politically bankrupt activists from the so-called national democratic camp, who constantly make a big fuss over the bugbear of the "Moscow threat" and who have agreed to use any means to achieve their goals. One such activist is Igor Yukhnovsky who expressed his opinion that in 2001 "a united local church will be achieved in Ukraine. . . In the long view I also see the unification of the Orthodox church with the Greek Catholic church."

The pope's visit to Ukraine cannot be seen as anything other than a provocation and interference in the internal affairs of the Orthodox church with the goal of driving canonical Orthodoxy out of Ukraine. The pope is trying to use his authority to support pro-Catholic and nationalistic forces of Ukraine in their struggle to draw Ukraine finally into the orbit of the influence of the West. The pope's visit is supposed to facilitate as well the achievement of Uniatism--Greek Catholicism--which so far is located only in western Ukraine. The pope's visit naturally lies within the course of the policy that has been conducted by the Vatican for centuries--the expansion of Catholicism to the East. But despite all that, Ukraine has remained in its majority Orthodox. Nevertheless, several representatives of the power structures obviously are prepared to betray Ukraine to the Vatican if only it can be removed "further from Moscow." Ivan Rudnitsky also reported that the largest foreign delegations are expected from Poland, around 200,000, and from Lithuania, around 10,000. Nearly fifty official persons will arrive in Lvov on invitation from the head of the city. In addition, official delegations and honored guests will arrive on invitation of the chairman of the provincial administration and hierarchs of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic and Roman Catholic churches.

Among honored guests will be the mayors of fraternal and partner cities, municipal heads of provincial centers of western Ukraine, and honorary citizens of Lvov. An invitation was sent especially to the head of the "Congress of Ukrainian Nationalists," Slava Stetsko. The pope's visit, in the intentions of its public and hidden organizers, is supposed to turn into a demonstration of the efforts of all anti-Orthodox, pro-western, and anti-Russian forces in Ukraine who are striving to sever the ages-old ties of Ukraine with Russia and the fraternal relations of the two Orthodox nations by means of the destruction of canonical Orthodoxy in Ukraine, which they call "Muscovite."

Additionally and far more recently, the pope has been considering adding a Patriarch in Ukraine. Rather then choose the city where this would be most logical, he has chosen a city which is largely Orthodox and historically significant, Kiev. From what I have read, Kasper is frantically trying to stop it.

At the time, when the pope took Ziggy along for his visit, NATO was in the process of deciding to accept Ukraine as a member. Just a few weeks after this, they did. Now that is just not a coincidence. No way. Ziggy has long drooled over the idea of Ukraine turning on Russia and being a stepping stone to destroy Russia. He has written about the use of Nato for just this purpose. What is the pope doing playing these games abroad, and about this time the priesthood here was falling apart in a major way, if you recall. Pedophiles coming out from every corner, but the pope was busy doing politics.

The pope made public statements about his visit to Ukraine being for healing. In Lvov his pre-arrival contingent was busy making arrangements to raze an old Orthodox church in the middle of town so the pope would have room to speak there to crowds which would come. Healing ways indeed.

Some of the other things I dislike about this pope....
vatican

More on keeping what is not yours and using it

I can find it if you insist. I had a link to an interview with the pope in his apt by a Catholic group. They were shown the Russian icon and talked to the pope about his keeping of it from Russia. The pope said to the interviewer, who published it in the writing, something very close to this - "Russia is what really matters in the end". I wish I could recall the exact words, but it had all the inklings of a conspiracy thing about "getting Russia". As if Russia were some property on sale or on a shelf. When I have time I will try to find it. If you read it I think you will see what I mean. This pope is a major game-player and I don't like him.

From this information I hope you can see that for me, personally, this pope says one thing but acts in ways which are obviously and purposefully going to estrange us. I have in the past posted commentary from some Italians, upper level clergy in Italy, who said this themselves.

This pope is not a peacemaker nor is he honest about his intentions. I am anxiously awaiting the next and hoping for an Italian. This one has a great deal to answer to God for. I wish him the best.

50 posted on 04/13/2004 9:41:12 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: wonders
Great post, thank you so much for sharing your experience with us !!!

51 posted on 04/13/2004 9:43:00 AM PDT by DTA (you ain't seen nothing yet)
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To: Wraith
You must be RC. In the past I have found this to a be a typically immature response. Name-calling with nothing or worth to say or add to the conversation. It speaks volumes for your church that this is what you can add to a discussion.

In point of fact, for a religious leader who spent a year or more visiting our patriarchs and playing up to us, putting tons of statements about there about how badly he desired to be united to us, to simply ignore the pogroms in Kosovo and not say one word about what happened there, to these people he supposedly loved and wanted to be with so much, is an obvious act of hypocrisy.

52 posted on 04/13/2004 9:45:51 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: wonders
how do you think this kind of stuff makes us feel?

"The miraculous Icon disappeared from the Basilica of Our Lady of Kazan in Moscow shortly after the Bolsheviks came to power in 1918. After stops in several countries, the icon was purchased around 1970 by the Blue Army of Our Lady of Fatima for $3 million. (3) The purchase was made for a very noble purpose: when Russia would convert, as Our Lady foretold at Fatima, the Blue Army would return the Sacred Icon to the country."

So does this mean convert to the Roman Catholic church? Can anyone blame Alexy for refusing to play this kind of game? A little further down it says this -
" The so-called Orthodox Russian Church continues steadfast in the same errors and heresies denounced by St. Pius X in his letter Ex quo of December 26, 1910. The Russian people did not reject the “Orthodox” church, therefore Russia has not converted."
They put Orthodox in quotes because in their eyes we are not a church of our own, but simply disobedient and schismatic. You can see why we run like the dickens from this kind of mutual respect and love. Not.

53 posted on 04/13/2004 10:00:20 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: wonders
link on church in Lvov

I am pinging you separately to threads on the new uproar in Ukraine.

54 posted on 04/13/2004 10:22:11 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: wonders
By now I have given you much reading. In summary I want to be very clear. I have no issue with the Catholic church. My problem is with this pope.

It is my opinion that this pope has done more to damage our relationship than any other in history. By contrast, look at the behavior of the Italians who sought to remedy the breech and took such a loving, healing act toward the Russian church, in the one thread I pinged you to.

A holy man does not keep something which does not belong to him, for years, much less use it to gain his own purposes.

A holy man does not play political games and simultaneously speak about a visit as a healing effort.

Soon we will have a new era. My hope is for the Italians. I predict that if this happens, there will be much healing and love between our churches again. Watch and see.

55 posted on 04/13/2004 10:48:28 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: wonders
I forgot to reply to much of your post with this. I do admit that Serbs can be horribly nationalistic. In fact I have said here often that nationalism is our largest sin in the Orthodox church.
56 posted on 04/13/2004 10:53:13 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: MarMema
My point is hypocrisy.

Point taken. I see what you mean.

57 posted on 04/13/2004 12:05:50 PM PDT by wonders (Preach the Gospel Always. And when necessary use words. -- St. Francis of Assisi)
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To: MarMema
By now I have given you much reading.

Yes, you have! And I am most grateful to you for it! When I have had time to carefully read and study all, I will reply, I promise. "Real life" intrudes for now and then I'm taking my Mom to poetry study at Church tonight (Merton). So please give me a bit of time. (BTW, my very Catholic mother sometimes has some very stern things to say about about JP2 as well. I'll have a chance to ask her some things as she keeps up with him better than I do.)

I'm very serious about my letter to the Pope. I've been planning it for a long, long time. And the kind people at my parish are encouraging me in this. The leader of my RCIA team actually visited with the Pope earlier this year and offered to deliver my letter in person. I wanted to wait until I had already become a Catholic, though. My poor little letter will likely do no good at all, but it's my duty to do my part and that I will do.

58 posted on 04/13/2004 12:22:16 PM PDT by wonders (Preach the Gospel Always. And when necessary use words. -- St. Francis of Assisi)
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To: Wraith
Aw (blush) thank you.
59 posted on 04/13/2004 12:29:29 PM PDT by wonders (Preach the Gospel Always. And when necessary use words. -- St. Francis of Assisi)
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To: MarMema
You are the kind of RC I could be a sister to.

Thank you. This statement of yours truly touched my heart and I am grateful to you for saying this. I hope and pray I can be a worthy sister!

60 posted on 04/13/2004 12:32:57 PM PDT by wonders (Preach the Gospel Always. And when necessary use words. -- St. Francis of Assisi)
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