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Army sets sights on XM8, a lighter, more-reliable rifle
Newark Star Ledger ^ | 3/21/2004 | Wayne Woolley

Posted on 03/21/2004 4:58:12 PM PST by Incorrigible

Edited on 07/06/2004 6:39:36 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

The replacement, called the XM8, is under development at Picatinny Arsenal in Morris County and is being tested at Fort Benning, Ga.

Developers say the rifle with the futuristic-looking curves is a marked improvement over the M-16 because it is shorter, lighter, easier to clean and unlikely to jam in a firefight -- an M-16 shortcoming illustrated in the ambush that wounded former POW Jessica Lynch and killed 11 of her comrades in Iraq.


(Excerpt) Read more at nj.com ...


TOPICS: Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; US: New Jersey
KEYWORDS: army; bang; banglist; rifle; weapons; xm8
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To: Criminal Number 18F
IF you have proof of your insinuations I would like to see it, I've personnaly scuttled two phony seals. I have seen the tests seen other tests that verified the 6.8mm and believe it to be as good as advertised by Roberts and others If you have info to the contrary please freep mail or post it here.
141 posted on 03/23/2004 4:34:13 PM PST by reluctantwarrior (Strength and Honor, just call me Buzzkill for short......)
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To: AdamSelene235
ROFL
142 posted on 03/23/2004 4:38:45 PM PST by freedomlover
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To: Incorrigible
For those without restraint do not . . . NOT go to this website to see how you can own many of these weapons.

www.gunbroker.com

Those that do go - my experience is that your local gun shop buddy should be able to match new gun prices - this site is IMHO good for looking up older guns, getting educated a bit, and occasionally buying.

143 posted on 03/23/2004 4:49:03 PM PST by freedomlover
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To: Criminal Number 18F
The only weapon we still have that shoots the .308 is the M240, which is one of the best weapons we have ever issued.

That will come as a great surprise to Army, Navy and Marine snipers, all of whom use 7,62mm boltguns and semiautos of slightly different specs, but all chambered for the 7,62 NATO cartridge.

There are also still quite a few M60Ds still in use as helicopter doorguns, preferred for that role by some though not me. And my local National Guard infantry unit still carries the M60; last time they went to the field their armorer came a-scrounging my way to see if I had a couple of extra combination tool wrenches and cleaning rod handles he could borrow or trade from me. I fixed him up.

144 posted on 03/24/2004 12:33:27 AM PST by archy (Concrete shoes, cyanide, TNT! Done dirt cheap! Neckties, contracts, high voltage...Done dirt cheap!)
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To: archy
Sorry, should have said standard infantry weapon. Yeah, we have sniper rifles, and they have, as I mentioned, issue a bunch of issue-grade M14s to the Stryker units, and will probably continue to do so.

I am very surprized than an NG infantry unit still has M60s. All the units in MA and NY have M240s. We borrowed a bunch of them to plus up when we went over back in mid-2002 so they had 'em then, too.

I don't know that there is a door gun retrofit of the M240 yet. The 82nd was flying UH-60As with steam gages and M60Ds in Afghanistan, but they were trying to put max blade time on them from about 11/02 because they had the word they were getting new helicopters on RTB, which would have been circa May 03. The medevac chopper from the CA guard was a UH60Q with FLIR and all that but was (as far as I could see in patient mode) unarmed.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F
145 posted on 03/24/2004 8:35:52 AM PST by Criminal Number 18F
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To: Criminal Number 18F; Eaker; Squantos; river rat
#131: Thanks. Great post.
146 posted on 03/24/2004 8:51:09 AM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Criminal Number 18F; Travis McGee
Have you used any of the Mk 262 77 grain stuff from Black Hills ? Comments ?

Stay Safe !

147 posted on 03/24/2004 9:18:43 AM PST by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.)
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To: Squantos
Faster than the Krag ? I have one of each and consider the Enfield much slower/rougher than my 30-40 aka 30 army Krag . Maybe I just have a bad example of the enfield No 4 Mk 1

Ya know, maybe you have me here. But try a MkI or MKI* Enfield... very, very slick.

Who was the guy promoting the Mosin-Nagant? I wonder if he's tried putting the safety on that sucker.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

148 posted on 03/24/2004 12:45:41 PM PST by Criminal Number 18F
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To: reluctantwarrior; Travis McGee
IF you have proof of your insinuations I would like to see it

If my insinuation is that he's a dentist and not an MD, you can check medical licences in his home state of California: http://www.medbd.ca.gov/Lookup.htm.

His dental license is here: http://www2.dca.ca.gov/pls/wllpub/WLLQRYNA$LCEV2.QueryView?P_LICENSE_NUMBER=37762&P_LTE_ID=706. It's state Dental Licence number 37762 and he's clean (no disciplinary actions). He also has a conscious sedation permit -- meaning he can give you stuff to calm you down, but not put you out). But that's it.

But he doesn't just say, "I'm a dentist and a damn good one." Instead he tries to insinuate he's something more. Same thing with his military service. Dude, I have nothing against medical officers. We need them. We need the cooks and clerks (maybe, not so many clerks as we have...) and weather forecasters and guys that fix helicopters and gals that talk to the press for inarticulate colonels. As long as those people tell the truth about who they are and what they did, I want to hear what they have to say.

I have real, deep-seated problems with Dr. Roberts's integrity (in case you didn't notice!) because of this pattern of insinuating he's something more than he is. It's especially irritating because he has some rare credentials that speak well of him as a person (a dental license is not an easy thing to get, requiring above-average brains and years of dedicated work). He's got plenty to be proud of... why hide it?

As far as his ballistics avocation is concerned... let his data stand or fall on its own, and not based on an appeal to special status -- let alone phony special status.

As far as the 6.8mm, I have been told that he had none, zero, involvement in that project. Those involved directly on the military side are all combat veteran operators... the usual weapons-development crowd in the military was cut out, and I don't think that any of the website warriors was invited to participate (although some contractors were, and some of them post on those sites for promotional reasons).

Anyway, the 6.8 will be available for everybody to test pretty soon. Remington did some of the cartridge development gratis in return for being able to bring it to the civilian market. If it works well for special ops, expect the poor bloody infantry to get it next. From what I have seen of it, it isn't going to be more accurate or significantly longer-ranged than the M855 but it will trade off some ballistic-defense penetration for more effective energy transfer to human targets.

The Marines will do whatever they think is best for them to do. They weren't too keen on the M4 and if they get the M8s they might choose all long rifles except for radio ops, etc., as the Army did originally with the M16/M4 mix in the iinfantry (that went by the boards). I was never a Marine and don't think like Marines; like everyone else I just respect them!

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

PS to Travis: The Black Hills 77 grain is the heat. We couldn't get it through channels, "There's no DODAC for this", "yes there is," "Not in our supply channels, sorry," had to bum it off our friendly Naval personages. (they were the only ones that had Raufoss for the .50s too). Then the JAGs told us it was illegal because it wasn't "Army" ammo. Pffft. One team has bought a forklift-pallet of the stuff in case we go back before 6.8s come down. (Shooting ammo you bought privately is also a no-no, but what are they gonna do to us?) -C18F

149 posted on 03/24/2004 1:23:35 PM PST by Criminal Number 18F
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To: Squantos; Travis McGee
Squantos, I think my PS to T McGee was really aimed at you. Post above this one in the thread. Sorry bout that.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F
150 posted on 03/24/2004 1:28:31 PM PST by Criminal Number 18F
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To: Criminal Number 18F
(Shooting ammo you bought privately is also a no-no, but what are they gonna do to us?) -C18F

Amen.

151 posted on 03/24/2004 2:48:13 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: archy; Jack Black; Squantos; Travis McGee; PoorMuttly; Shooter 2.5; *bang_list; Centurion2000; ...
ATTENTION! Barrett Firearms (makers of the famous M82 .50 cal rifles has a wonderful new toy for you 6.8SPC fans!

Seems Ronnie Barrett is "first on the block" with a civilian version. Oh, and it's available as a conversion kit, too!

152 posted on 03/24/2004 3:09:25 PM PST by Long Cut ("Man, don't hit me with those negative waves SOOoo early in the morning." - Oddball)
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To: Criminal Number 18F
That cartridge will be available for civilians to test pretty soon, as the previous post indicates. Here's a pic of Ronnie Barrett's latest goodie:

The M468 is, to my knowledge, the first civilian-available rifle chambered in this caliber.

153 posted on 03/24/2004 3:21:27 PM PST by Long Cut ("Man, don't hit me with those negative waves SOOoo early in the morning." - Oddball)
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To: Criminal Number 18F
As far as the 6.8mm, I have been told that he had none, zero, involvement in that project. Those involved directly on the military side are all combat veteran operators... the usual weapons-development crowd in the military was cut out, and I don't think that any of the website warriors was invited to participate (although some contractors were, and some of them post on those sites for promotional reasons).

There's at least one notable exception to that statement, on the ammunition development side, the involvement of The Locksmith in the design and choice of the bullet utilized with the cartridge. As you say, he's not one for tooting his own horn on websites, though I've run into him on one cowboy shooter's site a couple of times.

In particular he picked my brain for numbers on tracer burnout distances for similar projectiles, [I've got a LOT of experience with 6.5 Swedish tracer] Sid Hance's 1950s Enfield EM-2 .276x44mm cartridge and rifle design and the related belt-fed TADEN SAW in the same chambering, intended to replace the water cooled Vickers heavy MG and the Bren autorifle. Other thoughts he had about the 7x44 Danish cartridge I directed to a more knowledgable source than I am on that matter, but at least I knew where the information lived.

There's nothing really new about the ballistics involved; both the British had this figured out pretty well after the First World War with their developmental .256 cartridge and later efforts, just as figures of no less stature than Pedersen and Garand worked with the .276 Pedersen cartridge and a semiauto rifle for U.S. troops- which gave us the M1 Garand, if not in a .270 service rifle chambering.


154 posted on 03/26/2004 1:06:20 AM PST by archy (Concrete shoes, cyanide, TNT! Done dirt cheap! Neckties, contracts, high voltage...Done dirt cheap!)
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To: Criminal Number 18F
I know the people that developed the 6.8mm and when I asked for proof I was speaking to the SEAL comment.
155 posted on 03/26/2004 9:50:21 AM PST by reluctantwarrior (Strength and Honor, just call me Buzzkill for short......)
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To: reluctantwarrior
The 6.55 Grendal is the other new caliber. It's being promoted by Alexandria Arms who also make the .50 Beowolf (a 50 that works in the AR mechanism) and a AR upper for the Soviet 5.45 round.

I think it's a little hotter than the Remmy SPC round. Anybody else have opinions on this?
156 posted on 03/26/2004 12:35:27 PM PST by Jack Black
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To: supercat
“While the most popular .45 cartridge is usable in a lot of guns besides the original Automatic Colt Pistol....”

That is just one of the reasons the formal name was changed the 45 Auto prior to WWII.

“SAAMI is free to impose whatever labeling requirements they want on firearm or ammo manufacturers….”

The American Nation Standards Institute (ANSI), in conjunction with the Sporting Arms and Manufactures Institute (SAAMI) establish formal names and formal abbreviations for SAAMI member cartridges. Period! Not gun writers or uninformed shooters. IT IS THE HEADSTAMP AND BARREL MARKINGS, STUPID! Look at them. (and please don’t waste your time by using foreign imports to buttress your lame argument.

“Whoever designed the cartridge (or has rights of it) has the final say.” Wrong. SAAMI/ANSI has the final say.

“So, the name originally developed for the cartridge is no longer valid?

That is correct. The same is true for a host of other cartridges including 6mm Rem, 25 WCF, 30 WCF, 32 WCF, 38 WCF, 44 WCF, 22 Rem Spl, 7mm Rem Express, 30 USA, 30G1906, 38 Colt Special, 38 S&W Special, 357 S&W Magnum, etceteras. It is just as inappropriate to use an obsolete cartridge name, as it is to address someone’s wife by her maiden name. Practice either displays ignorance or malice.

“I guess I'm just not up on all the latest fads.” No, your are about 70 years behind the times.

Give it up. It is gone.

157 posted on 03/27/2004 9:53:02 PM PST by Buffalo Head (Illigitimi non carborundum)
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To: SJSAMPLE; endthematrix
See post 157.

Buff

158 posted on 03/27/2004 9:55:56 PM PST by Buffalo Head (Illigitimi non carborundum)
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To: Criminal Number 18F
Careful, they might bend your dog-tags and send you to a sandbox.
159 posted on 03/27/2004 10:04:49 PM PST by Tailback
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To: archy
Q: Are those M-14's and Garands maybe going to the US for sale? Wishful thinking but not too overboard.
160 posted on 03/27/2004 10:08:25 PM PST by endthematrix (To enter my lane you must use your turn signal!)
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