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Ohio's Critical Analysis of Evolution
Critical Evaluation of Evolution ^ | March 2004 | Ohio State Board of Education

Posted on 03/13/2004 11:53:26 AM PST by js1138

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To: js1138
Another scriptural testing, a double test:
Judges:
6:36 And Gideon said unto God, If thou wilt save Israel by mine hand, as thou hast said,
6:37 Behold, I will put a fleece of wool in the floor; and if the dew be on the fleece only, and it be dry upon all the earth beside, then shall I know that thou wilt save Israel by mine hand, as thou hast said.
6:38 And it was so: for he rose up early on the morrow, and thrust the fleece together, and wringed the dew out of the fleece, a bowl full of water.
6:39 And Gideon said unto God, Let not thine anger be hot against me, and I will speak but this once: let me prove, I pray thee, but this once with the fleece; let it now be dry only upon the fleece, and upon all the ground let there be dew.
6:40 And God did so that night: for it was dry upon the fleece only, and there was dew on all the ground.

401 posted on 03/15/2004 7:16:08 PM PST by PatrickHenry (A compassionate evolutionist.)
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To: PatrickHenry
There seem to be a lot of clintonian leaders in the Bible wh0 get a pass on breaking the rules. One thing is certain, however. If it's inconvenient for the leader to test God, then it's forbidden.
402 posted on 03/15/2004 7:19:49 PM PST by js1138
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To: js1138
Sorry guys, quarrel with Malachi: not me.

Do YOU rob God; as he claims?

Look to your OWN souls. My Master will rate His servant; not you guys.


Testing for God is a big no-no. He should know that.

TRUSTING His word is considered by y'all as Blasphemy?

MY My my....

Hebrews 5:14
But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

403 posted on 03/15/2004 7:27:34 PM PST by Elsie (When the avalanche starts... it's too late for the pebbles to vote....)
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To: js1138
What I DO know is, FAITH is the biggie:

...because they tested the Lord, saying, "Is the Lord among us, or not?" (Exodus 17:1-7)

The CoI were dispalying a LACK of it.

THAT's the problem: NOT the 'test'.
404 posted on 03/15/2004 7:30:23 PM PST by Elsie (When the avalanche starts... it's too late for the pebbles to vote....)
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To: js1138
I think it's blasphemous for people to judge the condition of other people's faith and issue dire warnings about the conditions of their souls.

WHAT!?

Ya better read 396 again, and see what YOU posted!
405 posted on 03/15/2004 7:32:06 PM PST by Elsie (When the avalanche starts... it's too late for the pebbles to vote....)
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To: Elsie
It's not about trusting the word. it's about interpreting it. You flunked that when you asserted that Jesus' words were intended only for Satan. I've checked with a number of authorities, and it just isn't so. Not to mention, it's not very hard to read without expert advice.
406 posted on 03/15/2004 7:32:43 PM PST by js1138
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To: js1138
....agree with their interpretation of things.

Ok then, just HOW do YOU 'interpret' this??


Malachi 3:10
Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.
407 posted on 03/15/2004 7:33:51 PM PST by Elsie (When the avalanche starts... it's too late for the pebbles to vote....)
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To: js1138
HA HA!

You flunked that when you asserted that Jesus' words were intended only for Satan.

By stating that You flunked, you apply the very thing to me, that you have just accused me of!!

408 posted on 03/15/2004 7:37:05 PM PST by Elsie (When the avalanche starts... it's too late for the pebbles to vote....)
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To: js1138
You flunked that when you asserted that Jesus' words were intended only for Satan.
 
HuH?
 
 Matthew 4:6-7
 6.  "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "`He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "
 7.  Jesus answered him, "It is also written: `Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "
 
Just WHO is the him Jesus is talking to?  Are you one of these folks who ignore the plain text and instead seek to find something else?

409 posted on 03/15/2004 7:41:16 PM PST by Elsie (When the avalanche starts... it's too late for the pebbles to vote....)
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To: Junior; jennyp; ElizabethP; PatrickHenry; VadeRetro; balrog666; RadioAstronomer; Physicist; ...
I am, however, smart enough to not claim that God can be tested for...

Okay. I can accept that. But let's say you're drafted (with mighty fine pay and the promise of extravagant riches upon the publication of verifiable results) to work up the tests, etc. used by those scientists who are plying the universe for signs of intelligent life "out there." What kind of experiments and tests would you propose? Or would you tell these guys they are anti-rational for assuming intelligence can be detected via scientific method?

410 posted on 03/15/2004 8:00:14 PM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Fester Chugabrew
But let's say you're drafted (with mighty fine pay and the promise of extravagant riches upon the publication of verifiable results) to work up the tests, etc. used by those scientists who are plying the universe for signs of intelligent life "out there." What kind of experiments and tests would you propose? Or would you tell these guys they are anti-rational for assuming intelligence can be detected via scientific method?

The only thing that SETI searches look for is narrowband radio emissions. That's it. There is no discussion about decoding the signal and examining its contents. The mere existence of that sort of emission is taken as an indication of intelligent life.

That test is, of course, predicated on the assumption that there is no natural method by which such an emission can arise, which in turn is based on the fact that we don't know of any such natural method. But I can guarantee you that if such an emission is ever detected, there will be natural-emission models flying out of the woodwork, and many scientists will suddenly go on record saying that the test was illegitimate in the first place, and that of course we should have expected such signals all along, regardless of any alien intelligence.

The "intelligent design" inference of teleology is different from SETI, in that it refers to things that are previously known to exist, rather than the search for things that are unknown. It is not irrational to suggest that intelligent design can be proven to underly any given structure; it is simply that every general test thus far proposed has been irretrievably flawed.

411 posted on 03/15/2004 8:21:00 PM PST by Physicist
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To: Physicist; PatrickHenry
The only thing that SETI searches look for is narrowband radio emissions. That's it.

Thank you for taking time to respond.

I would assume that the standard for recognizing intelligence "out there" entails at leat some form of organized data than can be apprehended by our senses, even if it is mere "narrowband radio emissions." Isn't that an awfully anthropocentric thing to do?

It is not irrational to suggest that intelligent design can be proven to underly any given structure; it is simply that every general test thus far proposed has been irretrievably flawed.

The reaction I am seeing from those who oppose any discussion of intelligent design in the classroom leads me to believe they would rather not see any more general tests either proposed or discussed, let alone have a chance to fail. Should they be allowed to speak, or should they be muzzled by the state?

412 posted on 03/15/2004 8:37:51 PM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Fester Chugabrew
I would assume that the standard for recognizing intelligence "out there" entails at leat some form of organized data

Bad assumption. The game is to find ANY radio energy emanating from a fixed point on the sky, where the energy is confined to a narrow and fixed range of frequencies. No organization is required as a criterion for the search. Only energy.

The reaction I am seeing from those who oppose any discussion of intelligent design in the classroom leads me to believe they would rather not see any more general tests either proposed or discussed, let alone have a chance to fail.

The public school classroom is a grossly inappropriate forum for winnowing scientific truth. That is why we have universities, scientific conferences, professional societies and peer-reviewed journals. Nobody has yet proposed any general design test that survives even a cursory examination by educated people; what makes you think the failures are appropriate fare for impressionable children?

413 posted on 03/15/2004 10:06:30 PM PST by Physicist
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To: Elsie
Just WHO is the him Jesus is talking to?

Jesus is talking to Satan, and quoting a scripture that applies to everyone, everywhere, not just to Satan.

414 posted on 03/15/2004 11:02:19 PM PST by js1138
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To: Elsie
I don't recall 396 being addressed to you, and I never speak for God or attempt to diagnose other people's relationship with God.
415 posted on 03/15/2004 11:06:26 PM PST by js1138
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To: Elsie
Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this...

Nothing in this sentence implies that God is making a general rule that applies to all mankind. On the other hand, the various prohibitions against putting god to the test, are clearly addressed to everyone. Go back and read them.

416 posted on 03/15/2004 11:10:18 PM PST by js1138
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To: Physicist
The game is to find ANY radio energy emanating from a fixed point on the sky.

And all this time I thought the game was to find signs of intelligence out there. What would we conclude if ever such radio energy were to be found? It doesn't seem like anything special to seek out. But I am a simple layman.

At any rate, even a radio wave distinguishes itself from the rest of the universe by virtue of the fact it can be aprrehended by intelligence, defined, and even measured.

When we've launched objects into outer space in a direction that assures no return, and even when we've sent objects to other planets, we've also included some inscriptions/symbols to communicate who we are and where we live in the universe. This must have a good many scientists laughing.

417 posted on 03/16/2004 4:36:41 AM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Fester Chugabrew
And all this time I thought the game was to find signs of intelligence out there. What would we conclude if ever such radio energy were to be found? It doesn't seem like anything special to seek out.

Sigh. Please read again the second paragraph of my post #411. Here it is again:

That test is, of course, predicated on the assumption that there is no natural method by which such an emission can arise, which in turn is based on the fact that we don't know of any such natural method. But I can guarantee you that if such an emission is ever detected, there will be natural-emission models flying out of the woodwork, and many scientists will suddenly go on record saying that the test was illegitimate in the first place, and that of course we should have expected such signals all along, regardless of any alien intelligence.

When we've launched objects into outer space in a direction that assures no return, and even when we've sent objects to other planets, we've also included some inscriptions/symbols to communicate who we are and where we live in the universe. This must have a good many scientists laughing.

But that's why I said a general test. A space probe is a highly specific object; there are no natural space probes. To say that nobody has come up with a general test for whether an arbitrary object is natural or designed is not to say that nothing can be recognized as designed, or that communication is impossible in principle.

418 posted on 03/16/2004 5:05:39 AM PST by Physicist
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To: Junior
Under attributes of design (#348) you wrote: I'd definitely look for a maker's mark or serial number (or "patent pending" stamp).

I have a hammer that has neither of the above. Should I assume, therefore, that it has no design or purpose?

419 posted on 03/16/2004 5:09:37 AM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Fester Chugabrew
But your hammer is obviously a manufactured item (i.e, there are tooling marks on the head, the handle is either cast plastic or rubber, in which case it has the marks of the die, or wood, in which case it was turned on a lathe and bears evidence of having done so). The hammer is an obvious "artifact." One cannot say the same for biological systems which bear no evidence of tooling.
420 posted on 03/16/2004 5:35:39 AM PST by Junior (No animals were harmed in the making of this post)
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