MEL ON THE DEFENSIVE

NY Post ^ | January 30, 2004 | Liz Smith

[presidio9]

'YOU'RE GOING to have to go on record. The Holocaust happened, right?" Peggy Noonan asks of Mel Gibson in the Reader's Digest for March. Gibson: "I have friends and parents of friends who have numbers on their arms. The guy who taught me Spanish was a Holocaust survivor. He worked in a concentration camp in France. Yes, of course. Atrocities happened. War is horrible. The Second World War killed tens of millions of people. Some of them were Jews in concentration camps. Many people lost their lives. In the Ukraine, several million starved to death between 1932 and 1933. During the last century, 20 million people died in the Soviet Union."

[Servant of the 9]

And if Mel can't even get the facts right on something that happened within the memory of living man, then how can he be trusted to get it right on something that happened 2,000 years ago.

I challenge you to name just ONE THING Gibson got wrong. His authority is the New Testament scriptures. What's yours - the anti-Christian bigots at the ADL?

You seem to have reading comprehension problems.
I don't know if his movie is accurate because it isn't out yet, at least not here, so I haven't seen it
What I said is that his grasp of 20th Century history is questionable, and that raises questions about his grasp of history of any era.

SO9

[exmarine]

I don't know if his movie is accurate because it isn't out yet, at least not here, so I haven't seen it What I said is that his grasp of 20th Century history is questionable, and that raises questions about his grasp of history of any era.

I read perfectly. Again, the ONLY REASON the entire subject of anti-semitism came up is because of his movie - The Passion of the Christ. The issue is the movie and always has been. And, it is easy to get the history straight if you just follow the gospel accounts which were written in the 1st century A.D. - get it? And that is exactly what Gibson did. If you or anyone else cannot name one single anti-semitic line or scene from the movie, then your charges are a bunch of crapola. Put up or shut up.

It doesn't matter what Mel's personal beliefs are if there is not one single hint of anti-semitism in the movie! Thousands of people have seen the movie and are virtually unanimous - there is no anti-semitism in it. Period.

[exmarine]

I will ask you one more time. Provide any evidence whatsoever that the movie is anti-semitic (from the movie itself).

[exmarine]

What I said is that his grasp of 20th Century history is questionable, and that raises questions about his grasp of history of any era.

Really? Then provide the quote and the source that show that Gibson denies the holocaust. Or, are you going on rumor or hearsay or bias?

[af_vet_1981]

Which six million is the author referring to? The six million Jews or the Six million Catholics?

I would think he referred to the six million Jews who were sought out for genocide by the Nazis and their collaboraters. The Catholic Church avoided that distinction by not completely opposing Hitler so it survived as an institution. It was not targeted for annihilation by rounding up every Catholic. Hitler could have crushed the Vatican and turned the Pope into a Christian martyr or perhaps just exiled him from Rome. We will never know what a Pope completely standing up to Hilter would have become. The Pope at that time did not deem it necessary or advisable to mobilize the Catholic Church in mass martyrdom on behalf of European Jewry.

The number six million is a reference point and symbolic of the loss of two thirds of European Jewry in systematic genocide. The actual numbers are approximately six million . I would accept a plus or minus of a few hundred thousand.

I don't label the murderers as christians but their intended victims included every Jew.

[af_vet_1981]

How many died in the Nazi death camps? How many were Jews? What is the documentation? These are all legitimate questions for historical inquiry. Since you seem to be committed to the count of 6 million Jews perishing in the camps, to the exclusion of other races, it's up to you to offer sources. I'm sure there's plenty of reliable documentation available. Let's see some.

There is no precise figure for the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust. The figure commonly used is the six million quoted by Adolf Eichmann, a senior SS official. Most research confirms that the number of victims was between five and six million. Early calculations range from 5.1 million (Professor Raul Hilberg) to 5.95 million (Jacob Leschinsky). More recent research, by Professor Yisrael Gutman and Dr. Robert Rozett in the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, estimates the Jewish losses at 5.59-5.86 million, and a study headed by Dr. Wolfgang Benz presents a range from 5.29 million to six million. The main sources for these statistics are comparisons of prewar censuses with postwar censuses and population estimates. Nazi documentation containing partial data on various deportations and murders is also used. We estimate that Yad Vashem currently has somewhat more than four million names of victims that are accessible. This figure is based primarily on some two million Pages of Testimony, which often contain information about more than one Jew who perished in the Holocaust. As of early June 1999, more than 1.6 million Pages of Testimony have been computerized. In addition, we have thousands of documents containing names from the Holocaust era, many of which are those of victims. This body of documentation has yet to be fully researched and added to our computerized database. Eventually we hope, through our computerization project, to provide as much information as possible about each victim.

[presidio9]

We will never know what a Pope completely standing up to Hilter would have become.

Ridiculous. How would the Pope have "stood up" to Hitler?

[SJackson]

We will never know what a Pope completely standing up to Hilter would have become

Without the support of the secular governments of Europe, likely dead.

[af_vet_1981]

Ridiculous. How would the Pope have "stood up" to Hitler?

He would had to have had the faith and courage of the early Jewish Apostles who were martyred by the Romans (the disciple Stephen by the Jews).

Not many men and women have that faith and courage.

[presidio9]

He would had to have had the faith and courage of the early Jewish Apostles who were martyred by the Romans (the disciple Stephen by the Jews).

and do what precisely?

[presidio9]

Thanks for the link. Lots of "gray areas" there.

[af_vet_1981]

Thanks for the link. Lots of "gray areas" there.

Not really. We have documented the calculated genocide of two thirds of European Jewry. There is no room for Holocaust denial. Mel Gibson should say which number he prefers so the focus can be on the movie, not his father.

[Texas2step]

All he has ever had to do to end the holocaust denier charges was to give a simple one word answer to a question he has been asked in almost every interview

You want a specific one word answer. claudius (another poster on this thread) wants a specific phrase (well more than one word, and it has to be exact), who knows what veronica wants.

He's denied being a Holocaust denier, he's given nothing that would indicate he's a revistionist, and he's answered the d#$n questions, just not with the exact word or phrase that certain people demand be used. Move on and get real.

[af_vet_1981]

and do what precisely ?

It is so sad you even have to ask.

Stop Hitler's genocide of the Jewish people or die trying.

I guess you don't think it is part of his job description.

[missyme]

Yes that is the point this all should be geered twoard "OVERSEAS" Millions of people are being tortured at the likes of radicals and if we start to act like. that is who we are in the United States then we will have problems..We are better than any country abroad, and we should be a "light" of hope and PEACE for those other countries that are involoved in the persecutuion of anyone...

[af_vet_1981]

He's denied being a Holocaust denier

Not really, not any more than Clinton denied charges with his answers. He implied ambiguity and evasion in his answers and that is quite sad. He could have put the charge to rest. He seemed unable to go against his father.

[unspun]

Know this: The only thing Gibson tried to do was tell the Passion story exactly as the Gospels recorded it. Exactly as 1 billion Catholics believe it happened (and, BTW, 6mm Catholics also died in the Holocaust). With one notable exception: Gibson removed Caiaphas' line "his blood be on us and on our children," because he thought it would be imflamatory. Caiaphas, a Jewish pharisee delivers that line after the Roman Pontius Pilot washes his hands of Jesus in Matthew 27. Still think Gibson was trying to stir up antisemitism?

Well said.

[Texas2step]

Mel Gibson should say which number he prefers so the focus can be on the movie, not his father.

There's absolutely no reason for Mel to even address this question. It's completely asinine! This is not a movie about the Holocaust, it's not a movie about the Nazis, it's not a movie even about the Jewish faith (although that certainly plays a part). It's a movie about Jesus Christ. Period.

There has been absolutely no credible criticism of anti-semitism, no credible accusation of denying the Holocaust (we're talking about Mel, here, remember), and absolutely no reason the question should ever be asked in the first place.

The only criticism has come from secular (mainly) Jews who have an agenda, and is based on absolutely nothing. I have read many, many reviews written by religious Jews who have no problems with the movie and have said that there is no anti-semitism in the movie. I have seen countless reviews by Christians, and even non-Christians who have stated unequivically that there is no anti-semitism in the movie.

Unreal!

[missyme]

Funny nobody cared what he thought about the Holocaust in the making of BRAVEHEART or WE WERE SOLDIERS, or SIGNS, yet make a movie about "Jesus Christ" and he is subject to this unfounded questioning. Did Martin Sorcese need to express his views regarding the "HOLOCAUST"? in making The Last Tempatation of Christ? What's next "

All WHITE CHRISTIAN Churches must express there views on Slavery and the Holocaust and if they don't there branded
RACIST ANTI-SEMITE HEATHENS, this is really our of hand..

[exmarine]

Stop Hitler's genocide of the Jewish people or die trying.

Dietrich Bonhofer did die trying as did the family of Corey Tin Boon and many others. I believe the churches in Germany went along with Hitler because they bought into the satanic lie from hell that Hitler's measures against the jews were somehow God's judgment on the jewish race, and all of Germany was judged for its complicity as every major german city was razed to the ground and millions of civilians were killed.