Show me heaven

BBC News Online ^ | Monday, January 26, 2004 | By Amanda Hancox

[Momaw Nadon]

FYI and discussion

[aruanan]

As more and more people come forward with accounts of near-death experiences, new research is about to examine the out of body experience to see whether mind and body really do separate at the point of death.

Note the unexamined assumptions in the last part of that sentence.

[CaptRon]

Unfortunately, neither of them was in the right place to spot the symbols.

What exactly does that mean. If the point of the experiment was to see if the experience is real, not spotting the symbols means there were no spirit beings (for want of a better word) to see them, not that the spirits were slightly misaligned!

[Stirner]

Unfortunately, neither of them was in the right place to spot the symbols.
What exactly does that mean?

I think it means that the person reported being out of their body, but not in the right position to see the symbol. For example, a symbol might have been painted on top of a light fixture so that you only could see it if you were near the ceiling, but the out of body experience report was about hovering near the window, or just above the body on the bed.

[Scott Mahrle]

Thank you for pointing that out! How is it "connected" in the first place? Physically? It's hard to imagine a non-physical object being physically connected to one's body. But if the mind is not part of the physical world, then in what sense is it connected to one's body?

[Consort]

Perhaps the nonphysical mind can be considered as a function or process of thinking that takes place in the physical brain which generates nonphysical thoughts. Thoughts are generated, in part, by desires and feelings via the senses and the brain. The thoughts may not be physical, but they influence or actually drive everything we do in the physical universe. And then, maybe not.

[smith288]

The life review can be caused by the brain firing in unusual ways as a result of a lack of oxygen or too much carbon dioxide in the blood stream. Endorphins released during times of stress can create a sense of peace and the tunnel of light could reflect abnormal patterns of firing in the visual cortex.

In other words, "You religious people have no idea what you are talking about." [gag]

[MHGinTN]

Here's a thought: all the research being done is based on electromagnetic data, and the conclusions therefore are based on the current (no pun intended) conceptualizatioon of electromagnetic energy; what if there is a temporal aspect to electromagnetic energy that we have yet to dofferentiate from a background reality of time? The spirit and soul may well be to some extent attached to a continuum that has a differing expression of dimension time than we assume in our data collection, so when the death moment comes, the temporal 'drag' may end but is not measureable with our current data collection methods.

[Consort]

Maybe heaven can be experienced but I doubt if it can be described; language has limitations.

[balrog666]

Ping.

[smith288]

Here's a thought...

Whats your point? Your thoughts are plausible... The quote I commented on sounds very spirtually nullifying wouldnt you say? Basically, "You arent going to heaven, your mind is whacked out is all."

[JenB]

Connie Willis's (great author) last novel, "Passage", was about a research in near-death experiences. I'd never really thought about them before, but she had a very good take on them (from a skeptical viewpoint). I think the subject is fascinating, if one could get past the partisans on all sides.

[CaptRon]

My point was that they didn't see it because they weren't really out of their body, not because they were in the wrong spot, as the comment I was questioning seems to assume.

[Burn24]

I was reading about an African Explorer who was set upon by a lion and badly mangled. He wrote something to the effect that in the moment of being attacked, he experienced an incredible peace, serenity and sense of well-being in the face of death. Maybe God has hardwired our bodies with this capability? It sounded like a massive opiate release, from what he described. Anyway, this is an incredibly interesting topic - thanks for posting.

[dglang]

Perhaps not all rooms were equiped with the markings and the person in question was in an unmarked room.

I experienced an OBE when I was very yougn, of flying around my bedroom and looking down on everything in the room. That was a very interesting experience and the clarity of what I viewed left a lasting memory in me.

[Cultural Jihad]

Hence the limitations of science, which cannot even begin to explain something so basic to human nature as why a child loves its mother, much less something as complex as the Beatific Vision.

In truth, there is nothing easier and simpler than seeing God. One can go get all the proof one wants to, but in no way would a meter ever move, or a graph chart advance.

[CaptRon]

Then I'd say it was a pretty poorly designed experiment, and I still stick with the most likely explanation, there was no one to see it. Any other position assumes facts not in evidence.

I believe in Occam's Razor.

[Nea Wood]

I experienced an OBE when I was very yougn, of flying around my bedroom and looking down on everything in the room.

Same thing happened to me. It wasn't as dramatic as a NDE, but it was enough so that I'm inclined to believe the reports of NDEs.

[Stirner]

"My point was that they didn't see it because they weren't really out of their body"

I completely agree with your point. I think there are wierd experiences that people sometimes have that seem to them as if they are outside of their bodies, but those experiences arise from disturbances of their nervous systems. Still, it's good scientific method to use symbols painted in odd places to test whether they really might be genuinely observing reality from an out of body position. If (as I expect) no one will ever report the symbols (unless they are cheaters who found out about them by ordinary means), that would count as evidence against there really being OBE's.

[Cultural Jihad]

What about symbols seen on the other side of the galaxy? ;-)