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Sounds like this may be a long haul with a craft needing a constant "work around." Perhaps some of our Freeper techies can give us some insight as to how bad this sounds.
1 posted on 01/23/2004 1:39:29 PM PST by Keith
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To: MrsEmmaPeel
What do you think?
2 posted on 01/23/2004 1:43:02 PM PST by Dog ("America will never seek a permission slip to defend the security of our Country")
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To: Keith
Isn't that spectrometer made by an ESA contractor?
3 posted on 01/23/2004 1:48:01 PM PST by CasearianDaoist
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To: Keith
Michael Malin, principal investigator of a high-resolution camera aboard NASA's Mars Global Surveyor spacecraft, unveiled a dramatic photograph showing Spirit, it's parachute and its heat shield resting on the surface of Mars. The remarkable photograph even shows several of Spirit's bounce marks in the martian soil.


4 posted on 01/23/2004 1:50:25 PM PST by So Cal Rocket
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To: Keith
Sounds like this may be a long haul with a craft needing a constant "work around." Perhaps some of our Freeper techies can give us some insight as to how bad this sounds.

It's bad, but not as bad as it sounded in the first place. Lots of fine techies are working the problem with the terran copy of Spirit to try to duplicate the glitch and then provide workarounds. (This is true of all long-range spacecraft sent by NASA. Even Galileo had a terran-bound duplicate for such purposes.)

The first step is replaying all commands sent prior to the malfunction. Then comes the process of ruling out causes one-by-one. Then comes ruling out causes-in-combination. It's a painstaking process to say the least.

"Safe mode" probably sounds like a really bad thing to most folks, but it's really not. Those who remember the Galileo mission will recall that the craft went into safe mode several times during the course of its work (and even had a total failure of its high gain antenna), yet the mission was still a success.

I still hold great hope for Spirit. And I'll still be holding my breath when Opportunity goes into the final stages for landing tomorrow night.

5 posted on 01/23/2004 1:50:29 PM PST by Prime Choice (Americans are a spiritual people. We're happy to help members of al Qaeda meet God.)
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To: Keith

6 posted on 01/23/2004 1:52:51 PM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: Keith
It depends on whether they can flash the software. They should have put a "safe mode" on the computer. Basically, you just run a terminal waiting for input. Who knows if they did that?
8 posted on 01/23/2004 1:53:56 PM PST by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
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To: Keith
Any computer that's rebooting itself 30 times a day is a very sick computer. Maybe it will heal itself somehow, but it sounds like hardware problems are contributing.
9 posted on 01/23/2004 1:55:45 PM PST by blowfish
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To: Keith
Sounds like they have to debug code they have already debugged a zillion times, and they have to do it soon because this device will go off-line in a couple of months anyway. If somebody does find the bug and they can reload, there ought to be some kind of reward. Maybe a new pocket protector w/ a set of 8 colors of ballpoint pens.
10 posted on 01/23/2004 1:56:46 PM PST by RightWhale (Repeal the Law of the Excluded Middle)
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To: Keith
Will this be a setback on Halibertens planned oil pipeline to Mars???

Pray for W and The Truth

12 posted on 01/23/2004 1:59:08 PM PST by bray (The Wicked Witch of NY and Her (9-6) Flying Monkeys are In Flames!)
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To: Keith
a very simplistic version of what Spirit is doing is the same thing your home computer doea when Windows finally craps out. Spirit is basically doing the same thing. Rebooting, finding a fault and rebooting again.

What the NASA engineers are doing now is basic troubleshooting and debugging. Much of the time finding the problem is a lot longer than fixing it. Especially when the equipment is only telling you limited information about its condition.

Judging from what the engineers have said, this is not a software problem but a hardware failure of some kind. The "Workaround" is not as bad as they make it sound. They will isolate the malfunctioning piece of equipment and then send programming to Spirit telling it to either disconnect the broken equipment from the system or to ignore the fault signal and not communicate with that piece.

Once Spirit is reprogrammed it will be an automatic "workaround" and will not effect the speed or operation of other pieces of equipment.

where the "degradation" comes in is that the broken piece is gone forever. if it is the Mass-spectrometer -- no tests can be done with that piece of equipment, etc.

That is what NASA is worried about, depending on what failed, Spirit may come back 99% functional or 9% functional. They won't know until they know what broke, and what that effects.

No matter what though, Spirit will be operational again, the question is "How operational"

13 posted on 01/23/2004 2:01:47 PM PST by commish (Freedom Tastes Sweetest to Those Who Have Fought to Preserve It)
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To: Keith

The component status module must be designed to operate independent of external damage/ingress as much as possible. This must be a sort of black box that has a very high fail-safe
design (relative to the main processor, drive units, motion system, chem lab apparatus etc).. thus it must have a polling routine (with multiple redundant comms) that should establish the working status of critical parts. If component status check routine processing and communications go out of wack... the mission is over because you cannot proceed if you are blind to feedback regarding Spirits damage conditions. If a rock were to be blown into the rover.....
14 posted on 01/23/2004 2:03:46 PM PST by birg
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To: Keith
Its a software problem. Can't connect directly to the source. Probably have the wrong address. Happens to earth bound Freepers all the time.-Tom


16 posted on 01/23/2004 2:06:44 PM PST by Capt. Tom (Don't confuse the Bushies with the dumb republicans. - Capt. Tom)
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To: Keith
Those Martians are pi55ed off at our dumping debris on their planet. The Brit/Euro Beagle was also silenced.
19 posted on 01/23/2004 2:46:58 PM PST by expatpat
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To: Keith; All
the victim of ongoing electronic seizures that have caused its central computer to reboot itself more than 60 times over the past two days.

Sounds like they used Windoze CE for Embeddeds.

22 posted on 01/23/2004 3:12:19 PM PST by Lael (BRING IT ON...Constitutional Reform of the JUDICIARY!!!)
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To: Keith
When I did some sub-sub-contract work for the Navy many years ago (1982 or so) in Pearl Harbor I heard a story of a software "bomb" that someone had put into a systems delivery on some warships. They came across it and stopped it out early -- maybe before it went operational. The software "guru" was said to have planned to blackmailing the Navy for a few mill or so, IIRC. Bad mojo. It was the first I heard of an actual in-software sabotage. Pre-internet, pre-trojan and virus days. I had seen a couple years before that a case where a fired employee kept the passwords to a dial-in system and went in one night and wiped out the entire system. He got Federal time for that.

Then around 1994 or so I went to work for a company putting control systems in railyards. A start-up subsidy of a bigger company. A few weeks before I came on board they had gotten there first major system operational for a major US railroad. It worked very well. The customer loved it. But they had almost been kicked out, under extreme prejudice, too!

They used a real-time unix-like OS. QNX. They had hired -- what we now call out-sourcing -- an "expert" to write the software, to port their prototype system into QNX. The consultant delivered the binaries, the source, all with the very development system itself he had used, that he been loaned. The company then took the binaries to the railyard, installing the system on site, a tight schedule, the yard was to go big time VIP "ribbon-cutting" the next week. The software worked, but after a couple of days it started going haywire. The system kept freezing up and rebooting somewhat randomly, after anywhere for three to fifteen minutes of operation.

For days they burnt the midnight oil trying to figure out what the problem was -- replacing system boards, IO modules, etc. The software had been working so they assumed a faulty hardware component.

Back at the home office, the chief engineer tried to rebuild the software system that had been delivered by the consultant, recompiling everything from source. Part of an attempt to add debug checkpoints -- something, anything to help identify the problem.

His rebuild failed. The customer became incensed -- they had until Monday morning to get the system working -- it was then Friday late-day. Or they would be out. And lose their big customer. And be sued for whatever a bankruptcy would leave, etc.

The chief engineer worked desperately over the weekend. His rebuild of the software had failed because of some unresolved externals. That could only mean not all of the software source had been delivered. But the consultant kept saying they had everything they needed. When they were able to reach him He was out more than in.

The chief engineer decided he see if maybe the missing software had been inadvertantly deleted. It happens. Honest mistakes happen all the time. He ran a disk sector-scanner search looking for the missing externals.

He did find some deleted sectors and painstakingly read through each of them. It was Saturady evening. He had found the missing source module -- the header made it clear. But as he read on he made a surpising and troubling discovery.

The missing and deleted source file had some intriguing comments. They talkedg about placing a "bomb" in the code.

As he looked the code over he saw he was looking at a very sophisticated randomly triggering bomb that buried itself in the QNX operating systems kernel -- that mangled some process scheduling tables that even few QNX experts know about. Amazingly the comments were unambiguous as to the malicious intent of the code. Vanity, oh vanity! Pride of waorkmanship, perverted ...

The big company headquarters was contacted. The findings explained, the dire circumstances on-site with the important and vital customer made clear. On early Sunday morning three company lawyers flew in. They met briefly with the chief engineer and the subsidy's director.

The lawyers then drew up some serious paperwork, and drove over to the consultant's house. They woke him up. They read him the riot act, and told him "Here is what you will do". His alternative? A few federal felonies, and a civil suit that would ruin him, when his jail time finished.

That afternoon he flew to the railyard and in a short while had the system working, sans his software bomb. The chief engineer stood over his shoulder the whole time his hand were near a keyboard.

The lawyers had insisted the consultant tell them why he put the "bomb" in "To make sure I get paid" he told them.

They paid him his travel expenses. And they paid on the contract he had. And left it at that.

Me? I would have pressed the case for criminal charges against him. But then I could have un-did the bomb with or without his help. But at the time -- that desperate time -- the company needed the fix made. Without the blackmail bomb removed they could not suvive -- they needed that project's success they needed to be in the good graces of that major railroad. Despite the fact that it was blackmail, they had to deal with the blakmailing consultant.

* * *

I do not think this martian rover is such a case -- that is I hope not. The management controls, are theoretically orders of magnitude better than the Monster Garage-type management that freight railyard control systems get.

26 posted on 01/23/2004 4:48:14 PM PST by bvw
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