Replies

"Big Confederate government brought the Confederacy to its knees" bump.

Tariffs, Blockades, and Inflation: The Economics of the Civil War Mark Thornton, Steven E. Woodworth (Editor), Robert B. Ekelund

*ping*

However, this analysis does not explain why the war started in 1861 (rather than 1851 or 1841) and it fails to explain why slavery was abolished elsewhere without such horrendous carnage.

It wasn't abolished everywhere at that time, of course, and sometimes when it was (e.g., Haiti) there was violence involved. Robert Fogel, in Without Consent or Contract, contends that had the Confederacy survived slavery would've persisted for decades not just there but in Brazil and the other places it still existed in 1865 as well.

I sanyone watching the new PBS series on "Reconstruction"? It's pretty typical stuff:

They went to great lengths to say that Andrew Johnson hated the rich plantation owners, but did not explain why his version of Reconstruction heavily benefited the rich southern whites. They didn't really explain the differences in the parties that led Lincoln (Republican) to free the slaves, and Johnson (Democrat) to try to disenfranchise the freed slaves. Also glossed over various unconstitutional aspects. I believe one condition of re-admittance to the Union was ratification of the 14th Amendment. Well, that's ONE way to get three-fourths of the states to ratify an amendment!

Reconstruction is a difficult topic and no one comes out smelling great, but PBS pretty much presented it as "Blacks=victims, Whites=evil". Big surprise.

Revisionist BS. Do you really think men will fight and die over tarriff policy? Men will fight to preserve their families, their culture, and their way of life.

If you look at the events leading up to the Civil War--the rioting in Boston, the fighting in Kansas, the demented activities of John Brown--in every case, slavery is the issue. Both the South and the North knew this, even though they tried to wrap themselves in more uplifting propoganda.

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Why did you insert "sic" after "cannons"?

The real truth about wars is that they are not started over principle, but over power.

Good point.

Some now teach that slavery was the sole cause of the Civil War – an explanation that historians have developed in the twentieth century

Oh, no! Here we go again!

"One-eighth of the whole population were colored slaves, not distributed generally over the Union, but localized in the southern part of it. These slaves constituted a peculiar and powerful interest. All knew that this interest was somehow the cause of the war. "-Abraham Lincoln, March 4, 1865.

That was in the nineteenth century, last time I looked.

Why did almost ALL confederates that never owned slaves go to war..? ..State rights... which were suborned more and more by the north.. thats why..

The real truth about wars is that they are not started over principle, but over power.

No no, he's got it all wrong, just ask the FR Unionist batallion.

The lame economic argument again. I know, I know....all of history can be explained by economic causes, right? Well, marxists say something similar -that all of history is just a class struggle, and feminists say that all of history is a catalog of oppression of women by men, etc. etc. This book would make a good doorstop.

I think slavery was the primary driver of the war in terms of selling it to the northern population. Many, if not most, northerners fought in order to bring an end to slavery. That is not to suggest that most northerners were not racists. They definitely regarded blacks as inferior, but human, and therefore entitled to rights. Blacks in the north endured a way of life that was in many respects worse than that of the south, a situation that remains to this day.

I doubt very many southerners fought to defend slavery. They fought to defend their states, their way of life, their families, their culture. Slavery was a part of that culture, but very few confederates who fought in the war owned slaves.

As to the thesis of the authors, I agree that all wars are primarily economic in nature. But that does not denigrate one bit the blood spilled by the honorable men on both sides of the civil war. They did their duty as they saw fit, and all the cotton brokers and railroard builders in North America at that time did not have the moral standing of cockroaches in comparison to the men who endured Shiloh, Manassas, Antietam, Gettysburg, Vicksburg, Atlanta and the cold winters in between.

The Republicans who came to power in 1860 supported...big government.

My how history repeats itself.

Lincoln's legacy is not that he "saved the Union," like many of his devoted worshippers so claim, but rather the ravenous government that is destroying the Constitution.

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I think that there was something about this on this morning. I will see if I can find the transcript.

I found it.

Sunday Morning Talking Heads Foxx News Show Interviews Lincoln Cabinet Officials

Today’s guests are the Lincoln Administration’s Secretary of the Treasury, and Secretary of State discussing the financial crisis known as SOUTHRON.

Tony Slow: Good Morning from Washington. The usual Foxx team is here, and this morning's guests are Treasury Secretary Salmon P. Chase and Secretary of State William Seward. Good morning gentlemen.

Mr. Seward and Mr. Chase: Good morning.

Tony Slow: As you know, the fleet of US warships that Mr. Lincoln sent to Charleston two weeks ago has just docked back in New York, having been unsuccessful in their attempt to land at Fort Sumter. The Confederate troops in Charleston took the fort, and thereby stopped a military invasion. However, Mr. Lincoln has just ordered 75,000 Federal troops called up, and is going about to blockade Southern ports. Sounds like he is declaring war. What's up with that?

Secretary Chase: Well, Tony, since the beginning of Mr. Lincoln's term I have consistently advised him that the seceding Southern states cannot be allowed to function independent of the US government.

Brit Humme: Why not? They have voted to be independent, and the peoples’ right to be free is guaranteed under our constitution and is now guaranteed under their new constitution. The Union is functioning nicely, so why do we need them?

Secretary Seward: Well, it is a bit more complicated than that Brit. Mr. Lincoln's actions have nothing to do with constitutional guarantees. It is much more than that.

Brit Humme: More than the Constitutional guarantees and the Bill of Rights? What could possibly be more important than the civil protections of the Constitution?

Mara Lieasson: Yes, it has to do with the freeing of the enslaved masses of Negroes from the chains of bondage on those massive plantations owned by those rich, lazy Colonel Sanders' of the South.

Mr. Seward: Sorry Mara, but Mr. Lincoln does not care about slavery. You remember, he just signed the Corwin amendment, the 13th Amendment to the Constitution, which will now guarantee that slavery will continue to legally exist and be legal in all states. It was just passed by both the House and Senate last month; he signed it, and it is now out to the states to be ratified.

Mara Liesson: I have never heard of that amendment. I am going to call Doris Kearnes Goodhead on my cell phone and get the truth.

Jarold Reverso: But in a speech he said that the country could not exist half slave, half free.

Mr. Seward: Jarold, he misspoke. What he meant to say was that the country could not exist 23% slave and 77% free. And where he came up with that idea, we don’t know. You know how he speaks…..in circles. He has come to believe that ambiguity seems to increase his political appeal.

Mr. Humme: He also said that he would not bring war, but would protect the revenue by collecting the tariffs. Sounds like that circular talk again. Is that why he sent the ships and troops to Charleston, and why is that not bringing war to the South?

Mr. Chase: Yes, Brit. That is exactly right. As you know, from the very first Cabinet meeting, I have been in favor of holding Charleston. In fact, I was the only person besides Lincoln who wanted to use the US military to coerce these people into paying the taxes. Mr. Lincoln thinks if he does not use the word "war", he can't be blamed for one if it happens. You can't argue with that logic.

Jarold Reverso: But why do we need these people, Mr. Chase? There is nothing down there except a bunch of rednecks, slaves, and Colonel Sanders’ effete snobs. They’re poor. They have nothing.

Mr. Chase: Jarold, let me see if I can explain it to you simply. Every year, hundreds of millions of dollars worth of tobacco and cotton are grown, harvested, sent to Southern ports and either direct shipped to Europe or sent through Philadelphia, New York, or Boston to their trading partners across the Atlantic. The profits from the sale of the goods are used to buy any number of other goods, which are then shipped back. When they reach our shores, the government has the right to tax the goods, which we do. The amount of taxes involved here is massive.

Mr. Slow: So, every year, the goods go back and forth and the government gets taxes on the transactions. No effort, just millions in taxes.

Mr. Chase: Yes, Tony, but not just millions. Here's the secret. Last year, 1860, it took only $31 million to run the entire government of the US. That was to pay for the Army, Navy, operations of the government, interest on public debt, government military pensions, and benefits. Guess how much we took in from tariffs?

Jarold Reverso: Tell us!

Mr. Chase: Well, we took in $53 million from tariffs; you must realize that 97% of the entire revenue of the treasury came from tariffs.

Jarold Reverso: I don't understand what this has to do with Colonel Sanders and Charleston.

Mr. Chase: Last year 65% of the tariffs raised were from tariffs on the imports of European goods purchased with the profits from the sale of Southern exports. So Jarold, duh, if the cotton and tobacco states leave the union, along with their cotton and tobacco financed imports which will be sold directly to Europe, the treasury would take in about 1/3 of what it did last year.

As of this morning, we only have enough in the treasury to run the government for about 2 months. Because of the recession in the North the past 3 years, our financiers in Europe and the Northeast are charging 12% to buy our Treasury notes, double the ordinary rates, and requiring the pledge of government owned land as collateral, something that is unprecedented. They have told us that they will not finance the government if it has no source of revenue.

Brit Humme: So, without tariffs, the government is broke!

Jarold Reverso: But Mr. Chase, you said that it only took $37 million to run the government. Why do you need over $50 million? Where is it all going?

Mr. Seward: Look Jarold. We have all sorts of industrial manufacturing that needs support. We are giving away land to the railroads. We are building roads, canals, docks, and water systems. Think infrastructure for Northern manufacturing. Congress determines all the spending beyond ordinary governmental basics recommended by the President. They all have their special spending requirements, and it would be impossible to stop them. Buchanan and his secretary of the treasury, Howell Cobb, tried their best to curb spending, but Congress went on record spending sprees the last couple of years, in spite of the recession.

Brit Humme: So, Southern dominated trade that produces the tariffs that finance the government, and thus Northern infrastructure spending that about doubles the cost of the government, is what Mr. Lincoln is wanting to preserve.

Mr. Seward: That is it in a nutshell.

Jarold Reverso: Is that what he meant when he said he would preserve the Union?

Mr. Seward: That was his public statement to appease and encourage Northern financial backers of the Government, industrialists, and politicians. It also served to rally political support from the uninformed masses.

Brit Humme: And he would take us to the brink of war to do so?

Mr. Seward: Yes. All we need is some excuse to attack. They have to take any coercion attempt on our part seriously because they have to protect and defend their new found independence. If they do not defend themselves, they have no chance to receive support from any other country.

Mara Liesson: (Dialing cell phone and whispering). Doris, what is this Corwin amendment deal?

Doris Kearnes Goodhead: Never read that in any of my books. Would really be bad for Lincoln and the Republicans if that were true. Worse even for us historians.

Mara Liesson: Yeah, there goes the entire “for the slaves” thing from the history books.

Doris Kearnes Goodhead: Well, they fired on the flag in Charleston…..that works well with the ‘kick-ass’ crowd.

Mara Liesson: Did you ever get Ken Burns straight on those starving troops at Fort Sumter story?

Doris Kearnes Goodhead: He said he read it in a paperback, and that maybe we should tone it down.

Mara Liesson: Doris, I think we ought to drop that story.

Doris Kearnes Goodwin: Could we just say that they were reduced to eating stale biscuits and pork? That's still pretty bad, isn't it? Yes, they were starving for lack of fresh oysters on the half-shell, and peaches with cream.

Tony Slow: That is a financial shell game of monumental proportions.

Mr. Seward: Yes, it is. I call it SOUTHRON.

Jarold Reverso: None of this is true. The South was poor, and the Northern economy was growing rapidly.

Mr. Chase: Not exactly son. The last 3 years in the North, it’s been pretty rough. It began with the Ohio Life Insurance and Trust Company, which declared in August of 1857 that it could no longer meet its obligations. This was important because it was the largest bank in Ohio, and purveyor of eastern credit and hard currency to the west. Its failure jarred the national banking system.

The next month, one of the largest banks in Philadelphia, alarmed by the drains on its reserves, suspended specie payments. Most northern banks reacted by hoarding reserves and tightening credit. Soon, many banks in the North began to close. Demand for overseas goods dropped, and soon northern exports dwindled. All the while in the South, the tobacco and cotton business was booming, with record exports and profits for the agricultural section of the country.

Tony Slow: Then there was the panic in 1859 with more banks closing and the Federal government still spending over $69 million while taking in only around $50. The Treasury borrowed $20 million to keep Congressional spending financed.

Brit Humme: With no recession in the South, their imports increased to become 66% of the value of the entire overseas commerce of the US.

Jarold Reverso: And Mr. Lincoln knows this? What a guy! And he sent the ships and troops to Charleston to make sure we will have our tax money. YES! He will go down in history as our greatest President.

Brit Humme: Only one thing here Jarold. The people of the South will defend their society. How many will Lincoln have to kill to preserve the financial house of cards that rests on the tariff system?

Jarold Reverso: But they fired on our flag at Ft. Sumter. That gives us the right to do anything to them. I am sure that there is some law that says that.

Mara Liesson: (leaning over to Jarold, whispering) Don’t use the starving soldiers story.

Mr. Seward: That was the political genius of Lincoln. He put a former, retired naval officer that had no current military authority, aboard a large fleet of federal ships with ambiguous orders to go to Charleston where another lower level officer, in charge of the fort who also had ambiguous orders, and waited to see what would happen.

Jarold Reverso: What a comedian. He threw them in and let 'God sort it out'. Hmmm. Idea for a T-shirt?

Brit Humme: Not exactly, but might be a good subject for a future speech. The Confederacy rightly defended its Declaration of Independence from the Union by defending Fort Sumter. The fort was taken without loss of life, the Federal invasion was stopped, and all Union forces from the fort were peacefully returned to the commander of the invading fleet.

Tony Slow: Apparently the real threat was Lincoln's usurpation of power. He thus became the first US President to send Federal troops out to violently attempt to solve a political problem of the people. He also inaugurated the practice of making war on citizens instead of armies.

Mara Liesson: You are being too dramatic Tomy. Lincoln is going to save the Union!

Brit Humme: Stuff it Mara. You have been hanging around with Doris too much. He is going to save the flow of money that allows Northern Industrialization to continue at the expense of the South.

Mara Liesson: You are insinuating that the North was being funded by slavery, and that the government was benefiting from slave labor the same as Southern farmers. How outrageous! Nothing of the kind was occurring.

Brit Humme: Have it your way, Mara. Sounds like you have got your panties in a bunch.

Tony Slow: The only question is how many lives will have to be given to protect the government-big business morass.

Mr. Seward: Judging from his determination to protect SOUTHRON, I would say it does not matter to him.

Jarold Reverso: Shocking.

Mara Liesson: Oh, eat one Jarold.