Grand Canyon Made By Noah's Flood, Book Says (Geologists Skewer Park For Selling Creationism)

San Francisco Chronicle ^ | January 8, 2004 | Julie Cart, Los Angeles Times

[Scenic Sounds]

How old is the Grand Canyon? Most scientists agree with the version that rangers at Grand Canyon National Park tell visitors: that the 217-mile-long chasm in northern Arizona was carved by the Colorado River 5 million to 6 million years ago.

[Junior]

They aren't hybrids. These all fall along a spectrum of subspecies that are fully capable of breeding (and producing non-sterile progeny) with their direct neighbors, but less capable of producing said progeny with members further away. The two end subspecies are so far apart that they are incapable of interbreeding. What you are seeing with a ring species is speciation in the act.

[GluteusMax]

So what you're saying is...they're all still ring species. They haven't turned into say, some OTHER SPECIES.

[PatrickHenry]

They haven't turned into say, some OTHER SPECIES.

Observed Instances of Speciation.
Some More Observed Speciation Events .

[GluteusMax]

Are the creatures at one end of the daisy chain 'ring species?' How about the other end? The fact they don't do the wild thing with those farther away doesn't change the fact they are still members of the same species.

It's akin to saying that canaries with wildly different beaks are somehow a different species. Or that Iguanas that have adapted to their new marine environment are a different species.

That all easily falls within changes accomodated by the robustness of the design.

Now if someone could produce some transitional thing between an amphibian and a reptile that would be something. (A common "truth" taught when I was a lad.)

Of course that's impossible. Every pitiful attempt at a partial evolving transitional creature would result in a dead thing from birth.

[pdunkin]

Although I do believe that there is a creator (every little thing just fits together too perfectly)(except democrats), I do have some problem with some of the biblical stories such as Noah's ark. I really don't know the actual number but there are literally millions of different species on this planet when one takes into account mammals, reptiles, birds, insects, etc. The size of the boat needed to haul two of all of them around for the duration of the flood would have to be staggering (assuming that there would have to be fodder for each as well)! I believe that the flood was just a localized event that, through repeated telling, took on epic porportions. Anyway, that's my two cents' worth.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so very much for your post!

The question becomes: how, then, did it [the human mind] develop?

Indeed. That is at the heart of the matter when all the layers of the onion are peeled away.

I try to sponge up all the information I can on research into consciousness/mind. Many articles are highly biased to the worldview of the researcher, a situation which tends to shove the subject back into the domain of philosophy. But perhaps that is a good thing because it does disclose intellectual prejudice with each iteration.

The good news is that many (if not most) physicists and mathematicians seem to simply follow the evidence and they are becoming increasingly interested in the subject. Such an immunity to prejudice will surely help overcome artificial boundaries!

[Theophilus]

I'm certain God created the Grand Canyon one way or another and I'm sure he'll back fill it someday someway: "Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:". People should be impressed by the Grand Canyon, not fooled.

[GluteusMax]

Thanks for the links.

Of course they suffer from the same deficiency, namely, in all the instances cited the creatures remained a variant of their original form.

The cichlids that got some funky new color schemes are still cichlids. They're not partially amphibian or transitional in any way. In fact they're simply another batch of the same thing, cichlids. Same with the worms, bacteria and plants mentioned.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you oh so very much for bringing us all up-to-date on the very latest information!!! And thank you for the clarification of the halting issue at 129.

It would be helpful though to know why the term non-axiomatic model is not an oxymoron and why Godel's incompleteness theorum would not apply, if you would care to sum it up in layspeak, please.

[PatrickHenry]

I don't think you had sufficient time to digest the materal at those links, but not a problem. This one gives you what you want: Transitional Vertebrate Fossils.

In particular: Transition from amphibians to amniotes (first reptiles).
Transition from synapsid reptiles to mammals.
Transition from diapsid reptiles to birds.

[Doctor Stochastic]

Partly correct. Of course, the SA article does point out that choosing a different set of markers gives a different breakdown. Still, there isn't a single set of markers listed that do not occur in all races. This isn't much of a problem as race is a social construct and is only correlated (rather than caused by) genetic markers.

[Doctor Stochastic]

Non responsive. You only restated your previous comment that evolutionary theory predicts differences in intelligence among races.

It is true that (with probability one) any two samples of people (regardless of race) will test differently on some intelligence test, but that's a quirk of statistical theory and has no bearing on evolution.

[Alamo-Girl]

Er, please excuse the interruption, but when you said:

This isn't much of a problem as race is a social construct and is only correlated (rather than caused by) genetic markers.

I was immediately struck with the question, how do you know the difference between that which is correlated and that which is caused by?

[Doctor Stochastic]

Are you saying that two groups of organisms that cannot interbreed are still of the same species? If so, what is your criteria for species?

[Junior]

The TWO ENDS are completely separate species.

[Junior]

In at least one instance of a ring species, the two ends butt up against one-another -- and cannot mate successfully, though each end can mate with the subspecies on the other side all the way around.

[Theophilus]

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

The voice of the LORD is upon the waters: the God of glory thundereth: the LORD is upon many waters.

For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

[Michael_Michaelangelo]

Talk-origins -- FAQ or Fiction?

[Ichneumon]

We'll just score that attempted combo dodge/smear move as a direct hit, thank you very much.

So I point out that you're behaving like a rude child, and you smugly consider this a personal *victory*? Amazing.

And that wasn't a "dodge", son, it was a refusal to be drawn into your attempts to start a puerile flame war. You may expect the same response to any other post which begins with comments about "in the rock under which you've been living", or similar playground insults.

Do you honestly think that such behavior *helps* build respect for your side of the discussion?

Any child (or troll) can manage to provoke outrage by behaving like a big enough a**hole. And only a child would consider this some sort of "win". It takes more than the emotional level of a child, however, to understand why intentionally pushing people's buttons is neither a "game" to be "won" or something that any decent human would stoop to do.

I repeat my earlier suggestion that you try again only after you've worked out your personal issues.

Are we clear now?

[dangus]

Given that quote, one might expect to observe his creation in the objects which he created. IOW: "Wow! Look at the billions of Years and amazing forces God used to create this canyon!"