The Pain of Coping When a Job Is Snatched Away

The New York Times ^ | December 1, 2003 | JILL ANDRESKY FRASER

[Fledermaus]

Whine, whine, whine. First, moving to Worcester didn't help. It's still very costly anywhere in Mass with the high taxes.

Also, they obviously are too stupid to MOVE! I'm sorry, I don't buy a couple with a $250K income and their high value jobs going to only $20K a year between the two. A pizza delivery person can make more than $20K a year.

Why didn't they save more? Why don't they move to where they can get jobs in their fields? Only one has to really. One could move and make more money and send it home.

My dad did that in 1971 after we moved to Arkansas from California and my mom got apendicitis. He moved back to Calif and got a good job and sent the money home. Was it hard on us? Sure, we didn't have a car to use and dad was gone. I had to, at age 12, ride my bike 5 miles to buy groceries. I didn't care...at that age riding my bike was my life! lol

But we did just fine.

[Fledermaus]

What do you want to do cherry? Use military force to keep third world countries in the third world? What happens if capitalism and democracy takes over in China? Are you worried about competing with 1.2 billion free people? It sounds that way.

I say, bring them on. The more they grow up and become free and make more money and create and compete, the more of our stuff they'll buy. And we create high end goods and services.

So you'll either have to market your apples better or grow something else. Or are the apple growers still stuck on the government teat in subsidies and other bad business practices? Do you think competition is bad?

What happens if the world succeeds in creating more and more viable economic countries in Asia, the former Soviet Union, South America, Africa? You want more protectionism from their willingness to make products for less?

Geez, I've heard this same BS argument for decades. Back in the 60's it was all the cheap electronics from Taiwan and Japan. Then it all sucked. Then it came back in the 1980's when everyone was convinced Japan was going to clean our clocks. Heck, dozens and dozens of movies in the mid 1980's were made on the premise of Japan taking over our industries and jokes in TV and movies about how Japan was so much better.

Well, it's now 2003 and where is Japan? Huh? Huh? Economically dead. They didn't take over anything. England and Canada still own more US property and do more business with us.

But I guess some fat, beer swilling, Democratic, union member living in Ohio or PA still needs to be coddled with a $40 hour job plus benefits while they never save a dime for the future (read the part about the guy that was forced to "sell his gun collection"...poor baby. On $16 an hour he thought it was a priority to have a gun collection). My heart bleeds.

Most "poor" people I know have two cars, several TV's, VCR's, DVD players, spend money going out to eat, movies, rentals, have computers, cellphones, etc.

Poor babies.

It reminds me of this mentality in the movies again. Did you see "Spider-man"? Peter Parker's uncle Ben, at the beginning of the movie, was laid off as the CHIEF ELECTRICIAN at some plant after 25 years (they might have said 40 years). And he's worried about how they'll get by. Did the man, with only one kid to worry about, ever save a dime? He drove an older car so he didn't waste it there. Maybe all the money went to repainting the kitchen for no other reason than Aunt May obviously wanted a new color.

After all those years did he not buy his house and have it almost paid off? I'd think so.

Rush Limbaugh once decided to have use a full show (he did many eventually) talking to people that weren't the whiners and the "can't change" folks like is portrayed by the media. He wanted to hear from those that moved on, started a business, changed jobs, etc. Those stories are something to write about, not the whining.

I'd also bet that most of those in this worthless article never bothered to really curb their spending. People resist that more than anything. Heck, most don't even know where the money goes. They don't keep track of spending habits (I do, I have degrees in Economics and Accounting and I'm anal retentive...I can tell you exactly how much I've spent on toilet paper over the last 15 years) and don't break old ideals of having to get your hair done and colored or poker night with the boys.

It's all relative. You just have to know where that relevancy lies.

[XBob]

166 - What does your husband do to support you and youall's family while you play around?

The point I was trying to make - "154 - " Got to stay at least 12 months ahead of the organization AND the industry."

is that few/nobody can be reasonably expected to be so prescient, just to maintain a job, if they could do all that, then they could rule the world.

There are a whole lot of honest, hard working people out there, who 'played the game', supported their wives and families, paid their taxes, and who were tossed on the trash heap when 'things' changed. They aren't layabouts, big spenders, wastrels, liars, thieves, cheats, or stupid. Just honest, hard working people who have gotten screwed.

I know, my uncle was one - a steel worker, a chemist who analyzed/tested/quality controlled the steel output in a big steel factory.

I was another, caught in Houston in the midst of the oil crash of the 80's. As One who got layed off in the petro-chem business with college degrees and plenty of experience, I got fired at one job (stocking shelves at K-Mart), because I refused to sign a form that I was being 're-trained' from a $25/hour procurement manager to a $3.50 shelf stocker) just so they could qualify for a government program which paid my 'retraining salary ($3.50/hr)' for 180 days.

The past few years, there have been the dot.commer's, the techies.

Many good people getting screwed, undeservedly. And a few fools, like those in the story at the beginning of the post, who played the 'grasshopper' to our 'ant'.

Many Americans don't understand what is going on right now,but it is not a race to bring other countries up to our standards, it is a race to bring our living standards down to the level of a third world country.

And all these idiots here on this thread who delight in the abolition of the middle class, because they think they are going to remain in the 'top class', and get their 'creme broulet' cheaper as their neighbors starve, will find out, you can't drive to work when you earn $1.00 per hour - Henry Ford knew that, even 100 years ago.

[Jim Cane]

And wealth is the sign of virtue and eternal election.

No. Wealth is a sign of someone having worked hard/smart (Bill Gates), or having robbed cleverly (Enron Barons), or having had the luck to be the son or daughter of one who worked hard/smart or robbed cleverly (Korrupt Kennedy Klan).

So what does the fall of the wealthy during the revolutions mean - the loss of divine grace?

The fall of the wealthy during revolutions is a sign that they were either too clever by half, or that they p*ssed off a lot of the peasantry.

How it can be reconciled with the predestination?

I don't know what you're talking about. The only thing that is predestined for man is the grave.

[RussianConservative]

Conservative by US standard yes...by Russian standard I liberal economist...tag not translate so well. Socially I conservative both way...that tag fit. As for trade, now US could have normal trade with Russia or EU or even Mexico but that smaller population and not that much move for price over all and in other nation things change quickly...because population small. Now of course we not talk actual trade, we talk export of factory when in West spoken mantra of "free trade". This not excess capacity to trade but industry built only service other nation not own peoples. That not trade, exactly. Also, unlike Russia or Mexico for example, most other nation hold giant tarrif in "free" trade...not quite free. And with populations of very poor and in hundreds millions, you never out compete...some time cheaper to throw few slaves...er working class...into meat grinder then automate...missing fingers? That ok, your village full of others to take job...the Chinese way...nation who never once have respect human life.

[ItsOurTimeNow]

They were overpaid for jobs that were not real. (probably)

More than likely.

I worked for a dotcom back in the late 90's/early 00's, right before they went belly-up.

There was a woman there who was employed as a "CPO", or "Chief People Officer". She had some kind of therapist/psychologst degree, and her sole job with the company was to "mediate disputes" between co-workers.

She made $85,000/year.

Just another useless position...

[RussianConservative]

What is interesting is history, in history where aristocracy had absolute power of peasants, they may have played and lived for moment but much because any day could bring peasant revolts...those nations far from stable and revolts and massacre were yearly thing...just look at Latin America and Africa.

[af_vet_1981]

You are correct. Credit should only be used sparingly. For example, homes that appreciate, cars at near zero percent interest, emergencies that you know can be quickly repaid. Everything else should be pay as you go. Do not be seduced by the fat years. Prepare for the lean ones.

[anniegetyourgun]

Being the ultimate anti-feminist, I won't react to your sexist question that; a) assumes I bring nothing to the financial equation in my household as the hubby does all the 'work' and; b) what I do is all play and not work. Instead, I will answer your question by saying my husband does work full-time - one of those dot.commers who was able to see the handwriting on the wall, in addition to preparing for a reasonable financial future for his family.

Of course, there are two pieces to that equation that most would never see - or acknowledge. The first is that the primary duties of a wife and mother represent work and added economic value. The second is that I worked full-time for many years prior to the marriage, bringing 90% of the assets to the union.

Having said all that, I accept your indirect compliment that Mr. Gun must be the brains behind the operation, as that leaves me to contribute the beauty!

[A. Pole]

The fall of the wealthy during revolutions is a sign that they were either too clever by half, or that they p*ssed off a lot of the peasantry.

Exactly.

How it can be reconciled with the predestination?

I don't know what you're talking about. The only thing that is predestined for man is the grave.

Some Calvinists associate material blessings as a sign of belonging to the "elect".

[Jim Cane]

Calvinism is antithetical to my beliefs.

[XBob]

187 - "What is interesting is history, in history where aristocracy had absolute power of peasants, they may have played and lived for moment but much because any day could bring peasant revolts...those nations far from stable and revolts and massacre were yearly thing...just look at Latin America and Africa."

Very good observation. I agree. And your idea is also very relavent as to why the US and North Europe have succeeded so well compared to other countries. - Their Religion.

For example - Russia had the religion of czarism then communism (dictatorship of the proletariat) - supporting dictatorships and not thinking. Muslims have a religion of obedience and not thinking and non-responsibility - it is Allah's will. Catholic countries have a religion of not thinking and irresresponsibility - 'say 3 hail Mary's and you are forgiven' (all of Latin America is Catholic). African tribalism, not thinking, just follow your leader.

Only Protestantism, 'you better do it right, or fix it, or believe, etc or you will burn in Hell' seems to have promoted individual responsibility, promoting innovation etc.

And now socialism is destroying that beautiful, creative, rewarding culture.

[XBob]

189 - "I won't react to your sexist question that; a) assumes I bring nothing to the financial equation in my household as the hubby does all the 'work' and; b) what I do is all play and not work."
===
Not sexist at all - merely an observation. We still live in a society where sex roles are pretty much defined for us.
===
166 - "May explain why I haven't HAD to work for the last decade. I dabble in those things that interest me. "
===

I bet your husband doesn't 'dabble' at his job (unless he is very rich and spoiled, which I seriously doubt). Men are still responsible for being the 'bread winners' in our society, even if the women do bring home some 'cake'. Being out of work is a serious blow to a man's self esteme. If your family cannot afford a roof over your head, it is the man who is blamed, not the woman.

I bet you don't 'dabble' at raising your kids. Women are responsible for doing the 'mothering'. If little 'Johnny' comes to school with a dirty face and isn't fed, it's not your husband who is blamed.

It's like the real answer to the question 'Why are most great chef's men?'

The real answer is that men don't 'have to' cook, every day, day in, day out. They can 'dabble' at cooking, or if they really enjoy it and are really good, they can become chefs, because they 'don't have to' do it, every day, 3 meals a day, they have the option not to do it.

So, it sounds to me like youall are lucky, and have a great marriage and are a good match.

Congratulations.

[anniegetyourgun]

Thanks. We are suited, we do have a good marriage - though I don't chalk that up to "luck."

[Ronaldus Magnus Reagan]

But I guess some fat, beer swilling, Democratic, union member living in Ohio or PA still needs to be coddled with a $40 hour job plus benefits while they never save a dime for the future (read the part about the guy that was forced to "sell his gun collection"...poor baby. On $16 an hour he thought it was a priority to have a gun collection). My heart bleeds

You remind me of foolish spending that I see here in Philly quite a bit. That being Eagles football fans flying to places like Dallas to see the Eagles play the Cowboys. Most of these people are not wealthy and are predominately blue collar.

I don't like to tell people how to spend their money or raise their kids, but blowing retirement money on a needless sports excursion (especially when you can watch the game on TV for free) seems foolish, don't you think?

[XBob]

194 - good Luck is when good preparation meets up with opportunity and the capability to recognize and take advantage of the opportunity.

We make much of our own luck, not all, though.

I trace meeting my wife halfway around the world years later, to the decision to wear a fancy pair of alligotor boots to a job interview, where we went to a jobsite, instead of the office.

[XBob]

194 - make that 'a MUDDY jobsite'.

[bert]

I used to visit a company that had Kids Friday.

The place was bedlam and as far as I could tell nothing was getting done. I would take me hours to accomplish munutes of work. Communication came to a standstill.

Alas, they are now gone.

[RussianConservative]

Orthodoxy does not breed blind obedience and for that matter it was not like Western propaganda under Tsars. In 1923 communists do survey of who in Russia read and write from age 15 - 25...it was 70% literacy rate, so obviously most peoples knew to read and write under Tsar (government fall 1917). Education was very high agenda and even under Catherine the Great labor laws passed (note that translation of Russian laws forbidden as sedition in England and France) and under Alexander II unions legal...that mean unions legal in 1860 or so....when legal in West?

Problem for Russia is that one: US, British and French business leaders (read Oligarchs) worry of Russian massive industrialization on going at period (10% growth rate for last 4 years before WW1) and work hard to discredit Tsar and support rebellion and then Kaiser give 50 gold mark credit to Bolshaviks.

[RussianConservative]

Oh don't forget utopian and murderous anabaptists, autocratic Calvinists and also England under Protestants and all N. Europe under Lutherins.