Novak: No anti-Semitism in Gibson's 'Passion'

Chicago Sun Times ^ | 11-03-03

[donh]

6 million Jews died in World War II. 9 million Polish died in World War II. Most Polish were Catholic. Do the math.

I just did. % of jews removed from poland?: 100%. % of poles removed from Poland?: substantially less than 100%.

[iconoclast]

Maybe the movie isn't anti-semitic, but Novak is.

Why is an outrageous post like this not immediately removed?

[donh]

6 million Jews died in World War II. 9 million Polish died in World War II. Most Polish were Catholic. Do the math.

I just did. % of jews removed from poland?: 100%. % of poles removed from Poland?: substantially less than 100%.

At any rate, what kind of argument is this? Would you be impressed if a serial killer told a judge, "wait am minute, I've killed people way more horribly than this murder I'm on trial for, so you should let me go.".

[Qwinn]

% of Jews killed in all of Europe? 80%

% of Jews NOT killed in Italy as a direct result of the Vatican's efforts? 80%

Qwinn

[donh]

MAN, you are hilarious!

The normal state of affairs is for priests to accompany armies in battle, in any western country. If you wish to suggest otherwise than the normal state of affairs, yours is the obligation of proof. I've seen the pictures, and, I suspect, so have you.

[donh]

% of Jews killed in all of Europe? 80%

% of Jews NOT killed in Italy as a direct result of the Vatican's efforts? 80%

Which amounts to some 6000, and you consider this a good score?

[iconoclast]

To many, anyone that holds Israel and its interests as less than that/those of the 51st state is anti-Semitic.

[Qwinn]

No, actually, the Jewish population of Italy in 1933 was 50,000. 40,000 survived.

Qwinn

[TomB]

Interesting you still haven't given a SINGLE source for your allegations.

[sobieski]

See, you don't know anything about history. Three million Poles were killed b/c they were untermenschen, not just cuz they were in the way. More Polish Christians than Jews. Whole villages, towns. It's insulting that you don't know that. It WAS genocide; the Polish Jews weren't the Nazi's own citizens; neither were the Christians. But they weren't Aryans. In fact, more Slavs were killed in camps, firing squad & etc than Jews.

Or did you miss that footnote to history, bigot.

[donh]

Interesting you still haven't given a SINGLE source for your allegations.

"The Sword of Constantine" Look in the picture section for, among other things, Nazi posters that use biblical references, nazi nuns on the march, and, catholic mass being conducted for SS troops. Weisenthal's holocaust musuem has a similar gallery on display.

Interesting that your entire argument seems to consist of this.

[donh]

Or did you miss that footnote to history, bigot.

What I missed, in your blizzard of factoids, was your refutation of my basic point, which was the Germany was at war with Poland.

[donh]

Or did you miss that footnote to history, bigot.

What I missed, in your blizzard of factoids, was your refutation of my basic point, which was the Germany was at war with Poland.

[donh]

No, actually, the Jewish population of Italy in 1933 was 50,000. 40,000 survived.

I see. So the ratio is 40000/6000000 rather than 6000/6000000. Now I feel better.

[Qwinn]

It doesn't matter to him. Didn't you hear? What really matters is the percentage of the population that was killed. We have so many Catholics and others, you could kill 20 million of them and it wouldn't matter.

Hell, the millions upon millions of Catholics and Orthodox (and Jews, for that matter) killed for their faith in the Soviet Union and China still haven't managed to get a footnote in history.

But Pius! Yeah, he's the guy who needs yet another movie/book/thread to condemn him. Not Stalin. Or Mao. Neither of whom Hollywood has seen fit to make a negative film about yet. HMMMMMMM.

Qwinn

[Qwinn]

LOL - you compare the numbers in Italy to the numbers in all of Europe, and expect to be taken seriously?

Actually, the number of Jews saved throughout Europe by actions ordered and/or aided by the Pope, as noted by an eminent Israeli scholar with the most access to the truth, is 700,000-860,000.

But I'm certain you already knew this. You just can't help but spin to make the Church look bad. Agenda much?

Qwinn

[rmlew]

First, DonH is wrong about Pope Pius.
While he did not do everything I would have liked, Puis XII and the Catholic Church purposely saved more Jews than any other group.

Regarding Poland, there were about 30 million Poles in 1939. About 9 million died. That is 30%. 2.7 Million of the 3 million Polish Jews died. That is 90%.
The Nazis never got around to their proposed murder of 1/3 of Slavs, enslavement of 1/3, and expulsion of the rest. However the killing of 6 million Polish Catholics or 25% thereof came close.

Regarding Novak, I am not sure that a convert to Catholicism from Judaism is the most objective source.
I have read good reports of the movuie. I have also read that parts of the movie are based on the ahistorical and anti-Semitic visions of a 19th century Nun. I will reserve judgement untill I see the movie and re-read the Christian Scriptures.

[Coleus]

http://www.catholicleague.org/pius/framemain.htm
http://members.aol.com/cmcginmd/PiusXII_Holocaust.htm

The most powerful man of the free world at the time was FDR and yet nobody ever blames him for not doing anything. Why do some protect socialists? And look at what he did with the boat load from Cuba.

[TomB]

Interesting that your entire argument seems to consist of this

Considering you have failed to back up even one of your allegations, yes, that is all the argument needed to see you are wrong.

[Aquinasfan]

"Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks...

Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly.

Albert Einstein
Time Magazine, 12/23/40

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The charity and work of Pope Pius XII during World War II so impressed the Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli, that in 1944 he was open to the grace of God which led him into the Catholic faith. As his baptismal name, he took the same one Pius had, Eugenio, as his own. Later Israel Eugenio Zolli wrote a book entitled, Why I Became a Catholic.

**************************************

"The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas... he is about the only ruler left on the Continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all... the Pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism... he left no doubt that the Nazi aims are also irreconcilable with his own conception of a Christian peace."

The New York Times editorial
12/25/41 (Late Day edition, p. 24)

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"This Christmas more than ever he is a lonely voice crying out of the silence of a continent... Pope Pius expresses as passionately as any leader on our side the war aims of the struggle for freedom when he says that those who aim at building a new world must fight for free choice of government and religious order. They must refuse that the state should make of individuals a herd of whom the state disposes as if they were lifeless things."

The New York Times editorial
12/25/42 (Late Day edition, p. 16)