No-smoking issue dominates Springfield City Council meeting again

KY3 TV ^ | 8/26/03 | Christine Bielawski

[Just another Joe]

SPRINGFIELD -- Six months of discussion still has not settled the issue of whether smokers should be able to light up in businesses open to the public. The latest proposal would let voters have the final say next year on a total ban everywhere, even bars and bowling alleys, starting in 2005.

On Monday night, about 25 smokers, business owners and industry association representatives told the city council that's a bad idea. The council heard from only one person -- a doctor -- in favor of the proposal. Some people said the proposed total ban would move the city forward too fast. Some said it should be done sooner. Some suggested exempting some buildings from the total ban.

Tracy Kimberlin, director of the Springfield Convention and Visitors Bureau, agreed to head up a committee of people on both sides of the issue that will try to present a compromise proposal to the city council. Kimberlin’s stake in the issue is that some groups, like bowling associations, might not hold tournaments or meetings in Springfield if smoking isn’t allowed in public places. Kimberlin’s committee will meet on Sept. 3 at the Springfield Area Chamber of Commerce on St. Louis Street at Hammons Parkway. Representatives of the Missouri Restaurant Association and the Missouri Petroleum Marketers and Convenience Store Association said they want to meet with the committee to see if they can get some relief for their members who have been, or might be harmed, by the current law or the proposed one.

The city’s current smoking ban is seven weeks old. It bans smoking in restaurants except those that derive at least 50 percent of their profits from liquor sales, or sell at least $200,000 worth of liquor each year, or sell liquor and have a separately ventilated area for smokers to dine, or have fewer than 50 seats. Some owners of restaurants that don’t meet one of the exemptions say they have lost a significant amount of business since the law went into effect.

Three proposals to amend the ordinance are before the city council. One would give an exemption until July 7, 2006, to restaurants that can show they lost at least 20 percent of their business from July to September, compared to the same three months last year. The second proposal would ban smoking, as of Jan. 2, 2005, in all businesses open to the public. The third proposal would put the second proposal on the ballot on Nov. 2, 2004, at the same time as the general election ballot for president, governor and other state and federal offices. The city council could vote on the three proposals at its meeting on Sept. 15, although it’s likely to delay the votes if it’s presented with a compromise to consider.

Representatives of the Knights of Columbus and the Sertoma Clubs told the council that bingo halls should be exempted from a total smoking ban. Proceeds from bingo games benefit some charities and non-profit groups. Bob Chancellor, a former city councilman, told the council that those groups would lose funds because bingo players tend to be smokers -- and he doesn’t believe they will keep playing bingo if they can’t smoke at the same time.

One man said he is part of a group that is collecting petition-signatures to recall all nine council members. Greg Roberts said Operation Springfield Shield believes the council is “out of control.”

[Protagoras]

However, if I worked at the restaurant, Id be pleased.

Fortunately rights are not determined by whether people are pleased or displeased with them. I know you understand that but taking pleasure in the violation of rights when it suits our preferences is the reason we are in the shape we are in.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

Speak for yourself.

[Protagoras]

Speak for yourself.

I was. Maybe I was wrong about you uinderstanding things, but I was speaking for myself.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

My dad smoked most of his life. First heart attack was at age 53. Dead at 60. He was part of Tom Brokaw's Greatest Generation. I would've liked to have had him around to introduce him to my son.

[Just another Joe]

I'm sorry for your loss but it is still not on topic.
You asked about a theatre owner being able to yell fire in a crowded theatre. If it is posted on the entrance that anyone can yell fire, whether there actually is a fire or not, without repurcussions, then yes I would say I would agree with that statement.
How many people do you suppose would go to that theatre?

[Protagoras]

My dad smoked most of his life. First heart attack was at age 53. Dead at 60. He was part of Tom Brokaw's Greatest Generation. I would've liked to have had him around to introduce him to my son.

I'm sorry for the death of your father. It has nothing however to do with rights although it may explain why you only care about certain rights and not others. My grandparents died of diabetes brought on by eating too much food. Think about where that would lead using your justification.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

People who enter a building open to the public, whether to eat or work there, have a right to a safe environment. Factories are inspected by OHSA, coal and hard rock mines by MSHA and buildings with elevators have a city or county inspection.
If I work in meat packing, or any other industrial occupation,I expect safe working conditions to be enforced. My office is inspected by the fire department and city building inspector. The house I build must be to a certain code, which includes smoke and fire detectors.
All this is an intrusion into privately owned space and probably could be described as a violation of property rights, but is society and are individuals better off because of these developments ?
The city of Springfield may be streching the "health and safety" aspect of their oversight role but its a good step. Tobacco smoke is dangerous, not to mention, offensive. Its not something I enjoy and smoking nearby can ruin a meal for me and my family. There is nothing in tobacco that is beneficial whatsoever.
The council is not reaching into private homes, but into public accomodations, which is a worthwhile effort and deserves support.
I don't miss leaded gasoline in the environment and I won't miss tobacco when its gone, too. The last survey I saw on the subject indicated 22-23 percent of Americans still smoke. Thirty years ago is was closer to 50 percent. Is this filthy habit really something you want to will to your children and grandchildren ?
Before you develop another personal attack, consider my politics: I make two political contributions each year; Congressman Ron Paul and the NRA. I'll match my conservative bona fides with anyone and I put my money where my mouth is.
You ?

[Eric in the Ozarks]

Diabetes has nothing to do with eating too much food. That's the stupidest statement I've read to date on this page.

[Protagoras]

I guess you don't know anything about adult onset type two diabetes. The connection between obesity and type two diabetes is clear and accepted by all competent reserchers and physicians. And my statement was stupid? Stupid is as stupid does.

Your father died from unhealthy habits and I have to give up my property rights because of it? Now THAT is a stupid concept.

Son, you ain't no classical liberal.

[Protagoras]

All this is an intrusion into privately owned space and probably could be described as a violation of property rights, but is society and are individuals better off because of these developments ?

The country would be better off if people like you were deported so I guess that justifies getting your boat ready.

You don't like to dine on private property where people smoke, don't go there.

[Protagoras]

Congressman Ron Paul is a libertarian not a conservative and he opposes this fascist nonsense. So send your money to Hillary, she represents your side.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

I'm not going anyplace. Nice to see a good personal attack when logic fails.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

Type 2 diabetic for 7 years.
You don't know what you're talking about.

Save the personal attacks. You don't have a command of the language.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

That may be your view. Mine is: tobacco is headed for the ash heap of history.

[Protagoras]

Type 2 diabetic for 7 years.

Me too, And I know precisely what I'm talking about.

The personal attacks started with you. Funny how the person who throws the first stone always cries the loudest when getting it back in their face.

[Just another Joe]

Personal attack? What are you talking about? I've made no personal attacks against you.

The anti-smoking groups pushed OSHA at one time to start checking tobacco smoke (ETS) for harm to workers and the public. When they pushed too hard OSHA came back and said that many of the elements found in ETS already had PELs (Permissable Environmental Levels) set and that it would take an ENORMOUS amount of ETS to rise to those levels. The antis backed off. The only thing they wanted to hear was that NO permissable level would be permitted.

Most of the 'intrusions' into the property of a business owner have come about because of a proven health risk to the public.
ETS is not a proven health risk. The three largest studies in the world all found statistical insignifigance when looking at ETS and public health.

If it's all about the aroma of tobacco just say so. Don't pull out 'public menace', 'ETS kills 30,000 people a year', etc. It isn't even correlative much less causitative that ETS does more than smell bad to some people that don't have a pre-existing medical condition.

[Protagoras]

tobacco is headed for the ash heap of history.

Freedom is headed for the ash heap of history. People like you are the cause.

Busybodies with guns usually prevail for a while.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

I would mind smoking if you just didn't exhale.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

RTeview you previous messages. When your arguyment gets weak you suggest I get on a boat or send money to Hillary or suggest I'm small. Pretty weak.

[Protagoras]

Personal attack = disagreeing with the poster.

But when he calls people stupid, it's not. Go figure.