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The Coming Battle [homosexual marriage]
National Review Online ^ | 11/26/2002 | Stanley Kurtz

Posted on 11/26/2002 10:18:01 AM PST by Mike Fieschko

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To: ambrose
It's not just entitlements -- a family is such an integral part of even a modern, secular, decadent society like ours that there are entire sections criminal and civil law dealing with marriage and families. Good luck getting all those things off the books.

21 posted on 11/26/2002 11:06:05 AM PST by Alberta's Child
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To: Alberta's Child
Why not gang marriages where all can jump in?
22 posted on 11/26/2002 11:18:42 AM PST by tessalu
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To: McNoggin
At that point, anyone who claims emotional connection can gain court recognition as a de facto parent or marriage partner.

Is that an arguement for contractual recognition of the relationship, or against it?

I don't think I understand your question.

Not to put words into Kurtz's mouth, but I believe he would reply that marriage is not a contractual relationship, and also, that to base a relationship of status (for want of a better term) on 'emotional commitment' is much too flimsy.
23 posted on 11/26/2002 11:23:35 AM PST by Mike Fieschko
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To: Mike Fieschko
Hey, we just found the only person who has purchased Gore's book!
24 posted on 11/26/2002 11:24:24 AM PST by Quilla
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To: Mike Fieschko
Right now, proponents treat the gay-marriage debate as a question of civil rights. But the real issue is what effect gay marriage will have on the institution of marriage itself.

This seems to me to be the crux of the biscuit, STS. When I was married, I never once felt in the least bit threatened, swayed, influenced or otherwise effected by same-sex couples wanting to marry, or at least have a civil ceremony.

Hetero marriage has been around for eons. This little blip on the radar won't do a thing to change it, and it's at least a little disengenuous, IMHO, to maintain otherwise.

25 posted on 11/26/2002 11:25:49 AM PST by Pahuanui
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To: Pahuanui
But the real issue is what effect gay marriage will have on the institution of marriage itself.

Well, it will turn it upside down, overthrowing thousands of years worth of tradition. But (seriously) how do we know that's bad? I would say that it is very bad indeed, and here's why: It completely changes the financial and child-rearing basis for society. It's a giant leap.

As others have pointed out, you can have a tax return with 50 spouse deductions. You can avoid inheritance taxes by marrying your grand-daughter. Is the government going to like having these financial rules changed?

How about children? Homosexual activists like to pretend otherwise but the statistics are clear: homosexual relationships do not last very long (VT is already dealing with gay divorces), and partner-abuse is higher in gay relationships than in hetero relationships, and child molestation is higher among gays than straights. Children lose big-time if their parents are gay.

So, we overturn one of core religious tenets holding our society together, and in return we get financial chaos and more disrupted childhoods. Great deal.

26 posted on 11/26/2002 11:55:21 AM PST by ClearCase_guy
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To: Mike Fieschko
Homosexuality is a lifestyle of peace
27 posted on 11/26/2002 12:00:28 PM PST by joesnuffy
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To: Mike Fieschko
If the gays get homosexual marriage, will the Islamic fundamentalists be right behind, demanding polygamy?
28 posted on 11/26/2002 12:02:18 PM PST by valkyrieanne
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To: ClearCase_guy
Well, it will turn it upside down, overthrowing thousands of years worth of tradition.

Really? I've never seen one proponent of gay marriages argue that heterosexual marriage should be amended for heterosexuals or done away with.

But (seriously) how do we know that's bad? I would say that it is very bad indeed, and here's why: It completely changes the financial and child-rearing basis for society. It's a giant leap.

As others have pointed out, you can have a tax return with 50 spouse deductions. You can avoid inheritance taxes by marrying your grand-daughter. Is the government going to like having these financial rules changed?

These extreme examples seem a wildly hyperbolic to me. Gay marriage is not polygamy, nor is it incestual, as far as I can tell.

How about children? Homosexual activists like to pretend otherwise but the statistics are clear: homosexual relationships do not last very long (VT is already dealing with gay divorces), and partner-abuse is higher in gay relationships than in hetero relationships, and child molestation is higher among gays than straights. Children lose big-time if their parents are gay.

I would think that marriages for gays would contribute to their being 'corraled', so to speak, and work counter to the promiscuity so often decried in the heterosexual community. As many married couples seem to know, marriage can definitely lead to sexlessness.

So, we overturn one of core religious tenets holding our society together, and in return we get financial chaos and more disrupted childhoods. Great deal.

Why would you assume that about 'religous' tenets? A civil ceremony is not in the least religous.

29 posted on 11/26/2002 12:09:25 PM PST by Pahuanui
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To: Polycarp
Unfortunately, the GOP do not and will not have the guts or conviction to do it.

You're dead wrong. The GOP won't have to do anything but insist that the issue should be decided by elected representatives. Turning this into some kind of morality play is something the country doesn't want, nor need.

Americans oppose the recognition of gay marriage by the state, and they will vote against those who promote it. But they also don't like people who "preach it" in their faces.

If the GOP is smart, they'll allow people to voice their disapproval (vote) without voicing their disapproval.

30 posted on 11/26/2002 12:20:52 PM PST by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur
I think Polycarp is right. "Unfortunately, the GOP do not and will not have the guts or conviction to do it."

And they need to take a stand! Our whole country is going down the toliet... and the GOP needs take stands even if they are Controversial
31 posted on 11/26/2002 12:28:31 PM PST by Saint Athanasius
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To: Pahuanui
These extreme examples seem a wildly hyperbolic to me. Gay marriage is not polygamy, nor is it incestual, as far as I can tell.

A key point that I and others have been making is that there is no line. Either marriage is an institution between a man and a woman which has children as it's likely (though not assured) biological outcome, or else marriage is anything people want it to be. As far as I'm concerned, being in favor of gay marriage is exactly the same as being in favor of polygamy or incestuous marriage. On what basis would YOU say gay marriage is OK but polygamy is not?

I would think that marriages for gays would contribute to their being 'corraled', so to speak, and work counter to the promiscuity so often decried in the heterosexual community. As many married couples seem to know, marriage can definitely lead to sexlessness.

It doesn't work that way and people with open minds know that. I've known 3 gay couples that went through "commitment" ceremonies. All three broke up within a year. VT allowed gay marriages about a year ago. They are already dealing with gay divorces. It is true that heterosexual marriages often result in divorce - but gay relationships break up far more commonly. In my book, it's just rank dishonesty to pretend otherwise.

32 posted on 11/26/2002 12:29:26 PM PST by ClearCase_guy
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To: Polycarp
I hope that you are wrong with this. Maybe the people are ready to force the issue....
33 posted on 11/26/2002 12:32:58 PM PST by .45MAN
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To: dansangel
(((((PING))))))
34 posted on 11/26/2002 12:34:20 PM PST by .45MAN
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To: ClearCase_guy
If we go down that road, what prevents brother-sister marriages. What prevents polygamy?

This is no time for rational questions. Just get on board the "tolerance" bandwagon.

35 posted on 11/26/2002 12:36:14 PM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: Mike Fieschko
Marriage is simply a legal contract between two individuals who have the right to enter into such a contract.

As it concerns my church, this contract, while legal, can never be considered holy matrimony. (A sacrament)

Like it or not, our laws guarantee this type of contract.

We do believe in the rule of law, don't we?
36 posted on 11/26/2002 12:44:10 PM PST by WhiteGuy
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To: sinkspur
You're dead wrong. The GOP won't have to do anything but

Dead wrong? These pro-homo initiatives are gaining ground everywhere, accompanied by the studious silence of the GOP.

Only pro-family groups are out there fighting it. And the public is apathetic.

Americans oppose the recognition of gay marriage by the state, and they will vote against those who promote it.

Doubtful.

37 posted on 11/26/2002 12:46:51 PM PST by Polycarp
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To: Polycarp
I look to California and what happened there when the same-sex marriage law was proposed. The proposal went down to defeat, total defeat, almost 70% of Californians voted against it. Churchs, conservatives, and everyone who believed in traditional marriage went door to door, night after night, informing their neighbors and friends what would happen. I like to think that the rest of Americans would do the same. And I personally wouldn't wait for the Republican party to organize this, I can do that on my own, along with my family, neighbors and friends. It is that important of an issue.
38 posted on 11/26/2002 2:40:55 PM PST by Utah Girl
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Comment #39 Removed by Moderator

To: Mike Fieschko
Just be glad you don't live in California. Though the voters passed Prop 22 (Marriage protection), the State legislature which is controlled by democraps, is spitting in our faces every chance they get. With Gov. "Gay" Davis at the helm, we're doomed.
40 posted on 11/26/2002 3:47:06 PM PST by Saundra Duffy
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