Bush to push for amnesty

Yes, they have crossed the threshold and how many have come since President Bush has been in office. We had the need , the opportunity and the will of the people to do something about this post 9/11. He blew it. His stand was apparent when he immediately invited Fox to the WH and allowed him to speak to our Congress and make demands for those same illegals. He has not wavered. And Garza's message is the same as Pres. Bush has put forth since taking office.

[You all can scream all you want, but you are not running for office.]

I will grant you that. So we are supposed to feel sorry for President Bush because he needs to make some tough decisions. You don't think we shouldn't expect President Bush to take a stand on what is the most important problem facing American today. Now he shouldn't touch that because it might be the demise of his career - yet it is fine with many people that he is sending American men and women into harm's way and putting their very lives in danger (not just a political career) to protect this country? You see I expect nothing less from a President than he asks of the citizens. NO I won't cry a river if he and every Republican is put out of office - but I will cry for those men and women that are going to war and those citizens who have lost their jobs, and their homes, and the changing of American forever because of illegal immigration. I just have different priorites, I suppose.

I will never call them 'guest' workers. That is an euphemism that is ridiculous. They are not guests, we are not responsible for their comfort when they come here. They are temporary workers - call them that and get the touchy feely aspect out of it.

[Meanwhile, we beef up accountability in education is our way of making sure the children born here (and thus American citizens) to illegals get a great education and thus can break out of the Democrat victim class and become real Americans in spirit, not just birth, what I call Operation Pied Piper.}

That sounds so good. It sounds very like what somone else posted here about the Islamic. We should educate them and then they will love us. Actually, it sounds very much like Powell's speech to the Islamic leaders. When did we become responsible for educating the world. As a matter of fact, it sounds much like the democrats 'It's for the children'.

All this at a time when the education of American children is woefully lacking, and we can't make it better when we are constantly adding people with needs for special education who are not paying their way.

Please don't anyone suggest vouchers will do the job as they have only been touted for 'poor and minority students or students in a failing school' believe me that is not the average taxpayer's child. And for that matter, where in our education system today are they going to be educated 'out of their victim class'. It won't be the public school system. It does just the opposite.

I will suggest the ones being "Piped" here are the American people.

Now we are going to register them as our 'guests' and see they go home after 2 years? We can't even find the ones who have committed crimes and been ordered deported and we are going to be able to register these and make them go home after a couple of years? It took over a year to find the airport workers working under false papers. Mind-boggling!!

Unless we get tough on this and face the tough truths - truth is often very hard to face - nothing will happen. You don't make deals with our laws. When you subvert the law for expediency, for political gain, or for economcy gain -we no longer have laws - just suggestions.

"Maybe we need a much better program to explain to them the real spiritual differences in the parties, and let them know that when they vote Democrat that they are forfeiting the souls of their children."

I always enjoy when you post and I have a great appreciation for your reasoning. But to me this is like people on the Titanic saying, "Maybe if we all bail water".

In Mexico, Mexicans tend to vote Marxist, in America many Hispanics vote their bellies. And if you agree at all with the accessment that not all Muslims in the USofA is a dangerous terrorist that will act, yet also a majority of Muslims quietly support their terrorist brothers, then maybe the fact should be looked at that while not all Mexicans will act to take the SW territories, they all silently agree that it should be theirs.

We don't have time for what you suggest given the level of invasion, and there is no guarantee it would be successful. These illegals need to be removed in mass now. By making it such a fearsome thing to hire them that no employer would even consider it, or by round up, detention, and deportation. Or a combination of both.

[Don't worry, I don't see any point in introducing any evidence into this discussion now. Perceptions are all that appear to matter. ]

Now you know and I know you know that anyone can find statistics or percentages posted by any number of learned people to support any agenda they want.

Now you tell me how I, or anyone else, has a true figure of what percentage of workers are illegals? There is no answer for that - just isn't. So to suggest without some figure that is impossible to obtain, the workers must not exist, is just silly.

I have said and I will repeat - I don't need to know percentage. Percentage is totally irrelevant. The harm that is being done is there for anyone to see and for those who are living with it to feel. Does it matter if it is .1% or 50%. Much damage is being done and if as you would probably like to pose it is a small percentage - then all the worse as the amount whatever, is causing problems. Now no amount of 'Just what percent' - "just how many' "where are your statistics' just will not work in the face of the facts they are here. The problems are here. It is breaking this nation. It is breaking hospitals, cities, schools, hospitals, law enforcement agencies, and taxpayers. We do not need to know what percentage is doing this - we just need to do something about it. Can you grasp that concept? WE are not talking perception here - we are talking physical, seeing, provable facts. The people are here, the problems are here. Explain that away with percentages.

Now you come up with percentages, statistics, etc. that show me the state of TExas isn't broke, the city of Dallas isn't broke, my taxes did not double in the last three years, my auto insurance has gone out of sight, schools are not full of Mexican children. But, hey, there can't be a problem as I don't have percentages -

Well sports fans, Dog Gone has had a tough night a the plate. His timing is off; his swing has developed a strange hitch. We could literally feel the whole stadium flinch when he swung wildly at that pitch three feet outside the strike zone and suggested that before masses of low-wage Mexican laborers started pouring across our southern border in contravention of our laws that Americans dwelt in a land of dirty toilets and lettuceless salads.

And how about that "personal experience" crack? ...I want someone here at FR to tell us how they were beat out of a job by an illegal alien....

Man, oh man, sports fans--he really looked bad standing there as a fat, slow beach ball floated right over the middle of the plate! Another strike-out! We don't know if he seriously believes that we can't, for example, despise the immorality of racial preferences unless we can name a white man who has suffered from it. Or that men should be forbidden from forming opinions about fetal extermination because fetuses don't grow in their bodies.

While the fabled slugger Aristotle insisted that man is a creature of the polis, weak-hitting Dog Gone would have us believe that we are nothing but atomized economic units; unsuited to--perhaps even incapable of--forming opinions and making judgements using our reason and imagination. No civil society, no culture, no "rule of law". Just constant adversarial social conflict and desperate economic competition between individual workers. Certainly the rich would get more bang for their buck. And the poor? Well, they can always hope to hit it big in the lottery or a class action lawsuit. A tort lawyer's heaven. But hell for citizens. But to be a citizen you have to belong to an identifiable, quantifiable, defendable political entity, don't you?

But wait! What's this? This may be a grand slam! The bottom of the ninth and Dog Gone may have snatched victory from the gaping jaws of defeat! Back...It's way back...way back....

... We are the ones who are imposing our political will on the rest of the entire planet. Mexico ain't even a pimple....

It might be... It could be....Oh no! A huge gust of wind has suddenly blown up from over the right field bleachers! The right fielder is standing with his back to the fence. The ball seems to be suspended in the cold night air. Now it's dropping. Sort of like our spirits whenever we read that "We" are doing something. Who are "We" anyway? What has become of "We"? The "we" that taught its children that nobody is above the law? (or below?) The "We" who descended from people who gave up a bit of themselves in order to become "American" and who went to great lengths to display their affection for and loyalty to their homeland?

Who is the "we" in 30% unemployment Lewiston Maine who, without any political consultation, implanted a large group of Somalian moslem refugees there? Who is the "we" that has beem bombing Iraq almost daily for over ten years? Who thinks it's OK if apparently eternal sanctions kill Iraqi children? Who, for some still unknown reason, decided that the United States had to aid and abet the destruction of Yugoslavia? To support the establisment of an islamic polity in the Balkans? And ultimately had to demonize, bomb and ethnically cleanse the Serbs--a people who had never done anything to us except hold us in some esteem? Which "we" has been funding, arming and training moslem jihadists all over the world for nearly 30 years? Who is the "we" that is profitting from low wage, illegal immigrant labor? Who benefits from the slander that Americans won't do the work that illegal immigrants do?

What will happen when a certain portion of the American population becomes convinced that there is no longer a "we" but rather a complex, chaotic and volitile collection of "thems" and "us" held together only by the coercion of a massive government police force? What will happen when the threat of being labelled a "racist" loses its power to dismay among a significant portion of the middle class because the label is constantly used by the wealthy to silence rational, even moral, objections of the less wealthy to the social and economic destruction of the country?

No fans, what was initially perceived to be a grand slam was really just another weak fly ball. It wearily drifted down out of the lights--worn out and puny. It is now resting in the right-fielder's glove as he trots into the dugout.

Perceptions are tricky things......

Why is Bush doing this. . .it makes no rational sense. What is he thinking??!! We won both houses and don't have to pander, and the LEGAL immigrants would vote hard-line Republican if they see the Republican's fighting to keep the system intact. This saddens me and annoys me greatly.

Bush is doing this because he believes that it will gain him Latino votes when he runs for re-election in 2004. A lot of other Republican officials believe that too like Gingrich who supported statehood for Puerto Rico which would have guaranteed two Democrat Senators and 7-8 additional House members which would have thrown the House and/or Senate to Democrat control for much of the past several years and would have left the Democrats in charge of the Senate today. Gingrich was wrong then and Bush is wrong now. Immigration is a winning political issue, but for opponents not supporters of unrestricted immigration and amnesty. On this issue Bush's political instincts are 100% dead wrong. The Bible teaches us to put our faith in God and not in men. I support Bush and will vote for him in 2004, but I will do so with both eyes open knowing he is far from the principled conservative President he could have been.

[Well, Nanny, regarding your comment on our taxes being used to support 3rd immigration (and living in Houston, I can tell you that they DO use social services, health care, etc.,]

Yes, and for someone to attempt to obscure the fact by demanding percentages, etc., just won't fly.

Those of us who live it know the problems exist and need to be fixed. Of course, so do the ones who are always demanding statistics, percentages etc., They know the truth, they just hope they can convince people because we can't give statistics - it just doesn't exist. Statistics are one thing - facts are something entirely different. We see the facts. WE live the facts. We are supporting the facts.

And no, I don't feel guilty because I am not willing to give our money, our culture, and the future of our children and grandchildren in another futile attempt to bring those countries to the south a better way of life.

We have been told we just don't see the bigger picture and it is so unsophisticated of us not to want to sacrifice the future generations of American so politicians can bring about their agenda.

Yet we don't see politicians sacrificing their fortunes or futures for this. We have been told we shouldn't even expect them to put their political careers on the line.

These illegals need to be removed in mass now. By making it such a fearsome thing to hire them that no employer would even consider it,

How?

That's what I'm trying to brainstorm here. Not wishes, not should haves, but what actually could be done at this stage of the occupation.

I'm not willing to lead an underground militia to the border to shoot women and children as they enter. Are you?

Well, politicians are not willing to do that either. And they are not willing to order "gestapo" type round ups and deportation. They weren't willing to do it when it was numerically feasible and they certainly aren't willing to do it now.

And numerically, just how long would such a round up take and how many dedicated people would need to be willing to do it? The time it would take would insure a change of government as the media would jump all over the heart wrenching stories and inflame the swing voters and that would put it to a halt.

And as for employer "sanctions", you ignore that the big ones have a lot of political clout, so don't expect them to all go to jail or suffer huge fines without fighting back and paying for a change of government.

I want some realistic, practical ideas/plan on HOW to accomplish what you want.

I know most threads at FR are just about blowing off steam, but I would like to go beyond that.

This is another issue. I don't think they should be automatically made U.S. citizens unless one of their parents is laready an American.

You would need a constitutional amendment to change the fact that children born in U.S. have U.S. citizenship or dual citizenship. And no one viable will support changing that.

What may be done is to change the law with regard to dual citizenship, so that a child born here who is taken back to the parent(s) native land, would have to decide at some point after coming of age which country they belong to. And there should be some law on how that decision is made or how it is made, de facto, by the actions of someone living in another country who was born here.

Then there are the illegals that have children here and get to stay BECAUSE they have a child here. This is for down the road, but we can work to get to a point where we could make the law state that the parent has to go back (be deported) and take their American-born child with them. The child then has dual citizenship, which would be decided later as above. Or they can abandon the child and the state can put it up for adoption.

These will be toughies to get passed, so we will have to build our majorities before we can hope for such changes in the current law and practices.

What do you mean, what do you do? You put troops on our border, if they are fired upon they fire back. You organize round ups of illegals city by city and ship them back across the border. Make it clear to them they are going to leave nicely, or not nicely, but leave they will. Put an end to anchor babies, the ones that are anchor babies already, tell the parents they have a choice, take the kid with them or leave it behind but they are going.

If the democrats squeal, flood the television with the crimes they commit, the over crowded schools, taxpayers and hospitals going broke, film a few WIC places, welfare places, it's nothing but illegal Mexican all the way out the door. Advertise the billions and billions of dollars that leave our economy yearly to Mexico, to S. America. Over seventy percent of Americans want them outta here, you think they are going to complain about how it's done? Heck no, they have their own kids future to think about.

D.C. had better deal with this problem, the Republicans had better deal with this problem, the Demoncrats sure won't. And if they refuse, who needs them? What good are they? Who needs a party as lawless as the Democrats? The Republicans have been given a mandate, FIX THIS MESS, and they better get busy with it, daylights wasting.

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