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Shadow Government Ordered After Attacks, Post Says (USA)
Reuters ^ | 3-1-2002

Posted on 03/01/2002 6:04:09 AM PST by blam

Shadow Government Ordered After Attacks, Post Says

Fri Mar 1, 1:42 AM ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Bush has set up a "shadow government" to ensure that the government would continue to operate in the event of catastrophic attack on the U.S. capital, The Washington Post reported on Friday.

The newspaper said in the first hours after the Sept. 11 attacks, Bush deployed a "shadow government" of about 100 senior civilian managers to live and work outside Washington, in the first-ever activation of a classified "Continuity of Operations Plan."

The report cited three officials with first-hand knowledge of the operation as saying the Cold War era plan was enacted because of heightened fears that the al Qaeda network might somehow obtain a portable nuclear weapon.

The Post said U.S. intelligence has no specific knowledge of such a weapon, but officials thought the risk was great enough to justify the expense and deployment of a shadow government.

One participant told the newspaper that the first deployment came "on the fly" in the first hours of turmoil on Sept. 11 and that the plan has evolved into an indefinite precaution.

Under the plan, high-ranking government officials representing various departments have begun rotating in and out of the assignment at one of two fortified locations along the East Coast, the Post said.

A senior official involved in managing the program said the civilian force present in the underground bunkers usually numbers 70 to 150, and "fluctuates based on intelligence" about terrorist threats.

In the event of an attack, the underground government would try to contain disruptions of the nation's food and water supplies, transportation links, energy and telecommunications networks, public health and civil order, the report said.

The Washington Post said it agreed to a White House request not to name any of those deployed or identify the two principal locations of the shadow government.


TOPICS: Breaking News; Government; News/Current Events
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To: mrustow
Philosophically, what you're saying sounds nice, but not very realistic.

I did not say it, but I certainly agree with it.

I'd also like you to show me where the Constitution forbids it.

I'm assuming by this statement you are referring to the shadow government. I cannot show you where the Constituiton forbids it. Nowhere will you find it forbidden in the Constitution. The Constituiton simply enumerates or lists those powers that are granted to the government by the people. Now, the last time I read through it, I saw no clause that allowed the creation of a "backup government" for when the manure strikes the prop, or for any other situation for that matter. There is one government in this country, and that one government derives the whole of its power from what is enumerated in the Constitution. Simply put, if it aint enumerated, they aint got the power to do it. You and I both know that that went out the window with Lincoln. Does that make it right? Is it okay that we've managed to putt along so far in violation of the Constitution? It seems to be the norm, but is that right? Should it not matter what the law of the land is or says, because we've been breaking so many of them for so long that it's become standard operational procedure?

Those are somewhat rhetorical question. I don't really need an answer. I know what my answer is, and I take comfort in it. If your answer is different than mine, but it works for you, who am I to say you're wrong? I might argue the facts with you, but the bottom line is, God forbid, should it happen, the nuclear scenario you mentioned, you nor anybody else other than those in my immediate circle of family, will matter one whit. And I will not matter to you and yours. If it happens, chaos will reign, regardless of the best laid plans of mice and men. Can one really have a foolproof plan for doomsday? Think about it.

161 posted on 03/01/2002 11:33:44 AM PST by Hoosier Patriot
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To: WALLACE212
And I'm not buying a national emergency plan for such a major catastrophic event (which has been around for decades) as unconstitutional.
162 posted on 03/01/2002 11:37:32 AM PST by anniegetyourgun
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To: Ward Smythe
"Is it just me, or does anyone else just think this means they've suggested the entire East Coast as a target?"

Oh, I read that to mean the entire West Coast is the target, since they are all huddling on the East Coast... I hope you're right, rather than me :)

163 posted on 03/01/2002 11:37:54 AM PST by tinacart
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To: tinacart
Hey, I happen to live on the East Coast! Thanks a lot!
164 posted on 03/01/2002 11:40:49 AM PST by Ward Smythe
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To: anniegetyourgun
Neither am I, just not a secret shadow one backed by all those nice Executive Orders.... have YOU read them? Do YOU want to live in under that system.?
165 posted on 03/01/2002 11:41:41 AM PST by WALLACE212
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To: rbmillerjr
elected representative in our Republic are delegating power "in event of catastophic emergency" and it would obviously be on an interim basis until effective Republican government could be restored.

What a lot of people here are worried about, is that it's not obviously temporary.

Someone else mentioned letting the State governments run things. Fine by me, but which one of the 50 State governors gets to order the U.S. armed forces around? Or do they have a conference call and argue endlessly about what orders to issue to the CINCs? Unity of command is essential, and we'll need unity of command when our military counter-attacks.

166 posted on 03/01/2002 11:45:47 AM PST by Chemist_Geek
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To: anniegetyourgun
And I'm not buying a national emergency plan for such a major catastrophic event (which has been around for decades) as unconstitutional.

annie, I don't really know much at all about you. I see your handle in the occasional post, sometimes read what you have to say, and whatnot. I surmise you probably know even less about me or care for that matter. I just have a question, one you may have been asked before. I have certainly seen a similar question asked of others, but it is by no means a trick question. Would you feel the same way if this shadow government thing came to light 3 years ago? Or, if it had not now, 15 years from now? Yes, I know that provisions for a shadow government have been around for a good long while. But, now we've got the real deal, a shadow government. So, 3 years ago? 15 years from now?

167 posted on 03/01/2002 11:47:06 AM PST by Hoosier Patriot
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To: Hoosier Patriot
I feel the same way about these that I feel about the "massive government conspiracy" that would take place amongst ham radio operators in the event of a major disaster in my vicinity 3 years ago - or 3 months ago.
168 posted on 03/01/2002 11:51:21 AM PST by anniegetyourgun
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To: anniegetyourgun
Power to ya, time will tell.

Wallace out.

169 posted on 03/01/2002 11:54:05 AM PST by WALLACE212
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To: Sequitur
Satire dude, satire. You know tin hat, sky falling, a fed in every closet.
170 posted on 03/01/2002 11:57:12 AM PST by jwalsh07
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To: sheltonmac
In order for the government to do something it has to show where the Constitution allows it (see the 9th and 10th Amendments). Just because the Constitution doesn't specifically forbid something doesn't mean the government can do it.

The same can be said in the opposite direction - if the Constitution doesnt specifically forbid something, it doesnt mean the govt can't do it. The Constitution is a relatively short document. You cant just look at the document, you have to consider Constitutional cases, precedent etc. to evaluate Constitutionality. There is absolutely nothing unconstitutional about what has been done. If it is unconstitutional a process will begin to evaluate it ending in the Supreme Court.

171 posted on 03/01/2002 11:57:35 AM PST by rbmillerjr
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To: blam
It's fascinating that they couldn't use any other word other than "SHADOW"; Just think about what your immediate gut reaction was when you read that.That's what I mean.I thought it too for a split second it created a tinge of doubt that was naturally swept away.I really loathe the media (The Entire Media) more and more each day,and I didn't think that was possible.
172 posted on 03/01/2002 11:57:42 AM PST by Pagey
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To: spectre
The bunker was always maintained and ready for Our Government officials in case of "nuclear war",etc.

Looks reasonable they would use this facility, it's cost effective, LOL!

If we can manage to get them all in there can we lock it from the outside?

-ksen

173 posted on 03/01/2002 11:58:02 AM PST by ksen
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To: Lumberjack
All the best, love and kisses...

Your Friend,

Lumberjack

He's a lumberjack, and he's okay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day
He cuts down trees. He skips and jumps.
He likes to press wild flowers.
He puts on women's clothing
And hangs around in bars?!
He's a lumberjack, and he's okay.
He sleeps all night and he works all day!

Sorry, I couldn't resist.
174 posted on 03/01/2002 12:03:47 PM PST by BJClinton
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To: blam
There was a similar article in todays edition of the Miami Herald. I spoke to my American Government classes about it and plan to take in the other Herald article wherein they related the fury of the citizens of Homestead Florida at the thought of a NEW MILITARY DETENTION CENTER...ONE OF NINE located across the country erected for an unstated purpose, but each fully functional needing only "inmates" and guards.

Some time ago, I saw on FR a great article called
"FEMA: The Dark Underbelly" does anybody have a link to that they can publish on this thread? It was truly scary.

I used to think that it was going to be Clinton tripping all those horrifying Executive Orders during the Y2K disaster (which never happened...but I was ready!) in order to suspend the Constitution so he could hang onto power.

NOW, I wonder what would have to happen in the event of a multiple nuke attack by terrorists, against the national government or a multiple shutdown of the national power grid...a buddy of mine still in the military e-mailed me to say that he'd read an article in the NY Times stating that our power computers have been probed by computers originating in the Middle East.

175 posted on 03/01/2002 12:07:35 PM PST by ExSoldier
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To: spectre
The Greenbrier Hotel ... West Virginia. Carefully adjust your tinfoil hat and go here:
Google Search - Watch for 'Black Helicopter' stories too!



176 posted on 03/01/2002 12:35:55 PM PST by Tunehead54
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To: lentulusgracchus
It's a fair question. Care to have a go?

I'm not so much having a go at it, but I like the points you brought up.

Before I could support or condemn this "Shadow Government", I would need to know if they plan on superceding any Constitutional instructions. If some of the Legislature is intact, it would seem to me that they would still complete their elected responsibilities. One of those would be to appoint a new speaker who would then assume presidential responsibilities until a new election could be held.

If this SG is just to maintain functions like communications, infrastructure, intelligence etc. in support of the Constitutional Gov't, then I'd be okay about it. Regardless, I don't have enough information to pass judgement yet.
177 posted on 03/01/2002 12:42:47 PM PST by BJClinton
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To: mrustow
I got a chill reading this article, but not out of paranoia at Bush & Co. Rather, I am impressed with him. For him not to have a backup, skeleton government in case of nuclear attack, would be a sign of incompetence....

Well, then, just go on thinking of him as an incompetent then, because Presidential Decision Directive NSC-63 that established it is a part of the Clinton Legacy:

FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY

THE WHITE HOUSE
WASHINGTON

May 22, 1998

PRESIDENTIAL DECISION DIRECTIVE/NSC-63


    
    MEMORANDUM FOR THE VICE PRESIDENT
                   THE SECRETARY OF STATE
                   THE SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY
                   THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE
                   THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
                   THE SECRETARY OF COMMERCE
                   THE SECRETARY OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES
                   THE SECRETARY OF TRANSPORTATION
                   THE SECRETARY OF ENERGY
                   THE SECRETARY OF VETERANS AFFAIRS
                   ADMINISTRATOR, ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY    
                   THE DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET
                   THE DIRECTOR OF CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE
                   THE DIRECTOR, FEDERAL EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY
                   THE ASSIST TO THE PRESIDENT FOR    
                     NATIONAL SECURITY AFFAIRS     
                   THE ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT FOR
                     SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY    
                   THE CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF
                   THE DIRECTOR, FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
                   THE DIRECTOR, NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY

SUBJECT: Critical Infrastructure Protection

I. A Growing Potential Vulnerability

The United States possesses both the world's strongest military and its largest national economy. Those two aspects of our power are mutually reinforcing and dependent. They are also increasingly reliant upon certain critical infrastructures and upon cyber-based information systems.

Critical infrastructures are those physical and cyber-based systems essential to the minimum operations of the economy and government. They include, but are not limited to, telecommunications, energy, banking and finance, transportation, water systems and emergency services, both governmental and private. Many of the nation's critical infrastructures have historically been physically and logically separate systems that had little interdependence. As a result of advances in information technology and the necessity of improved efficiency, however, these infrastructures have become increasingly automated and interlinked. These same advances have created new vulnerabilities to equipment failure, human error, weather and other natural causes, and physical and cyber attacks. Addressing these vulnerabilities will necessarily require flexible, evolutionary approaches that span both the public and private sectors, and protect both domestic and international security.

Because of our military strength, future enemies, whether nations, groups or individuals, may seek to harm us in non- traditional ways including attacks within the United States. Because our economy is increasingly reliant upon interdependent and cyber-supported infrastructures, non-traditional attacks on our infrastructure and information systems may be capable of significantly harming both our military power and our economy.

II. President's Intent

It has long been the policy of the United States to assure the continuity and viability of critical infrastructures. I intend that the United States will take all necessary measures to swiftly eliminate any significant vulnerability to both physical and cyber attacks on our critical infrastructures, including especially our cyber systems.

III. A National Goal

No later than the year 2000, the United States shall have achieved an initial operating capability and no later than five years from today the United States shall have achieved and shall maintain the ability to protect the nation's critical infrastructures from intentional acts that would significantly diminish the abilities of:

Any interruptions or manipulations of these critical functions must be brief, infrequent, manageable, geographically isolated and minimally detrimental to the welfare of the United States.

IV. A Public-Private Partnership to Reduce Vulnerability

Since the targets of attacks on our critical infrastructure would likely include both facilities in the economy and those in the government, the elimination of our potential vulnerability requires a closely coordinated effort of both the government and the private sector. To succeed, this partnership must be genuine, mutual and cooperative. In seeking to meet our national goal to eliminate the vulnerabilities of our critical infrastructure, therefore, we should, to the extent feasible, seek to avoid outcomes that increase government regulation or expand unfunded government mandates to the private sector.

For each of the major sectors of our economy that are vulnerable to infrastructure attack, the Federal Government will appoint from a designated Lead Agency a senior officer of that agency as the Sector Liaison Official to work with the private sector. Sector Liaison Officials, after discussions and coordination with private sector entities of their infrastructure sector, will identify a private sector or counterpart (Sector Coordinator) to represent their sector.

Together these two individuals and the departments and corporations they represent shall contribute to a sectoral National Infrastructure Assurance Plan by:

During the preparation of the sectoral plans, the National Coordinator (see section VI), in conjunction with the Lead Agency Sector Liaison Officials and a representative from the National Economic Council, shall ensure their overall coordination and the integration of the various sectoral plans, with a particular focus on interdependencies.

V. Guidelines

In addressing this potential vulnerability and the means of eliminating it, I want those involved to be mindful of the following general principles and concerns.

VI. Structure and Organization

The Federal Government will be organized for the purposes of this endeavor around four components (elaborated in Annex A).

VII. Protecting Federal Government Critical Infrastructures

Every department and agency of the Federal Government shall be responsible for protecting its own critical infrastructure, especially its cyber-based systems. Every department and agency Chief Information Officer (CIO) shall be responsible for information assurance. Every department and agency shall appoint a Chief Infrastructure Assurance Officer (CIAO) who shall be responsible for the protection of all of the other aspects of that department's critical infrastructure. The CIO may be double-hatted as the CIAO at the discretion of the individual department. These officials shall establish procedures for obtaining expedient and valid authorities to allow vulnerability assessments to be performed on government computer and physical systems. The Department of Justice shall establish legal guidelines for providing for such authorities.

No later than 180 days from the issuance of this directive, every department and agency shall develop a plan for protecting its own critical infrastructure, including but not limited to its cyber-based systems. The National Coordinator shall be responsible for coordinating analyses required by the departments and agencies of inter-governmental dependencies and the mitigation of those dependencies. The Critical infrastructure Coordination Group (CICG) shall sponsor an expert review process for those plans. No later than two years from today, those plans shall have been implemented and shall be updated every two years. In meeting this schedule, the Federal Government shall present a model to the private sector on how best to protect critical infrastructure.

VIII. Tasks

Within 180 days, the Principals Committee should submit to me a schedule for completion of a National Infrastructure Assurance Plan with milestones for accomplishing the following subordinate and related tasks.

The CICG shall also review and schedule the taskings listed in Annex B.

IX. Implementation

In addition to the 180-day report, the National Coordinator, working with the National Economic Council, shall provide an annual report on the implementation of this directive to me and the heads of departments and agencies, through the Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs. The report should include an updated threat assessment, a status report on achieving the milestones identified for the National Plan and additional policy, legislative and budgetary recommendations. The evaluations and recommendations, if any, shall be coordinated with the Director of OMB. In addition, following the establishment of an initial operating capability in the year 2000, the National Coordinator shall conduct a zero-based review.

Annex A: Structure and Organization

Lead Agencies: Clear accountability within the U.S. Government must be designated for specific sectors and functions. The following assignments of responsibility will apply.



Lead Agencies for Sector Liaison:
    
       Commerce        Information and communications

       Treasury        Banking and finance
    
       EPA             Water supply
    
       Transportation  Aviation
                       Highways (including trucking and intelligent
                        transportation systems)
                       Mass transit
                       Pipelines
                       Rail
                       Waterborne commerce
    
       Justice/FBI     Emergency law enforcement services

       FEMA            Emergency fire service
                       Continuity of government services

       HHS             Public health services, including prevention,
                       surveillance, laboratory services and
                       personal health services

       Energy          Electric power
                       Oil and gas production and storage
    
Lead Agencies for Special Functions:
    
       Justice/FBI     Law enforcement and internal security

       CIA             Foreign intelligence

       State           Foreign affairs

       Defense         National defense

In addition, OSTP shall be responsible for coordinating research and development agendas and programs for the government through the National Science and Technology Council. Furthermore, while Commerce is the lead agency for information and communication, the Department of Defense will retain its Executive Agent responsibilities for the National Communications System and support of the President's National Security Telecommunications Advisory Committee.

National Coordinator: The National Coordinator for Security, Infrastructure Protection and Counter-Terrorism shall be responsible for coordinating the implementation of this directive. The National Coordinator will report to me through the Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs. The National Coordinator will also participate as a full member of Deputies or Principals Committee meetings when they meet to consider infrastructure issues. Although the National Coordinator will not direct Departments and Agencies, he or she will ensure interagency coordination for policy development and implementation, and will review crisis activities concerning infrastructure events with significant foreign involvement. The National Coordinator will provide advice, in the context of the established annual budget process, regarding agency budgets for critical infrastructure protection. The National Coordinator will chair the Critical Infrastructure Coordination Group (CICG), reporting to the Deputies Committee (or, at the call of its chair, the Principals Committee). The Sector Liaison officials and Special Function Coordinators shall attend the CIGC's meetings. Departments and agencies shall each appoint to the CIGC a senior official (Assistant Secretary level or higher) who will regularly attend its meetings. The National Security Advisor shall appoint a Senior Director for Infrastructure Protection on the NSC staff.

A National Plan Coordination (NPC) staff will be contributed on a non-reimbursable basis by the departments and agencies, consistent with law. The NPC staff will integrate the various sector plans into a National Infrastructure Assurance Plan and coordinate analyses of the U.S. Government's own dependencies on critical infrastructures. The NPC staff will also help coordinate a national education and awareness program, and legislative and public affairs.

The Defense Department shall continue to serve as Executive Agent for the Commission Transition Office, which will form the basis of the NPC, during the remainder of FY98. Beginning in FY99, the NPC shall be an office of the Commerce Department. The office of Personnel Management shall provide the necessary assistance in facilitating the NPC's operations. The NPC will terminate at the end of FY01, unless extended by Presidential directive.

Warning and Information Centers

As part of a national warning and information sharing system, I immediately authorize the FBI to expand its current organization to a full scale National Infrastructure Protection Center (NIPC). This organization shall serve as a national critical infrastructure threat assessment, warning, vulnerability, and law enforcement investigation and response entity. During the initial period of six to twelve months, I also direct the National Coordinator and the Sector Liaison Officials, working together with the Sector Coordinators, the Special Function Coordinators and representatives from the National Economic Council, as appropriate, to consult with owners and operators of the critical infrastructures to encourage the creation of a private sector sharing and analysis center, as described below.

National Infrastructure Protection Center (NIPC): The NIPC will include FBI, USSS, and other investigators experienced in computer crimes and infrastructure protection, as well as representatives detailed from the Department of Defense, the Intelligence Community and Lead Agencies. It will be linked electronically to the rest of the Federal Government, including other warning and operations centers, as well as any private sector sharing and analysis centers. Its mission will include providing timely warnings of international threats, comprehensive analyses and law enforcement investigation and response.

All executive departments and agencies shall cooperate with the NIPC and provide such assistance, information and advice that the NIPC may request, to the extent permitted by law. All executive departments shall also share with the NIPC information about threats and warning of attacks and about actual attacks on critical government and private sector infrastructures, to the extent permitted by law. The NIP will include elements responsible for warning, analysis, computer investigation, coordinating emergency response, training, outreach and development and application of technical tools. In addition, it will establish its own relations directly with others in the private sector and with any information sharing and analysis entity that the private sector may create, such as the Information Sharing and Analysis Center described below.

The NIPC, in conjunction with the information originating agency, will sanitize law enforcement and intelligence information for inclusion into analyses and reports that it will provide, in appropriate form, to relevant federal, state and local agencies; the relevant owners and operators of critical infrastructures; and to any private sector information sharing and analysis entity. Before disseminating national security or other information that originated from the intelligence community, the NIPC will coordinate fully with the intelligence community through existing procedures. Whether as sanitized or unsanitized reports, the NIPC will issue attack warnings or alerts to increases in threat condition to any private sector information sharing and analysis entity and to the owners and operators. These warnings may also include guidance regarding additional protection measures to be taken by owners and operators. Except in extreme emergencies, the NIPC shall coordinate with the National Coordinator before issuing public warnings of imminent attacks by international terrorists, foreign states or other malevolent foreign powers.

The NIPC will provide a national focal point for gathering information on threats to the infrastructures. Additionally, the NIPC will provide the principal means of facilitating and coordinating the Federal Government's response to an incident, mitigating attacks, investigating threats and monitoring reconstitution efforts. Depending on the nature and level of a foreign threat/attack, protocols established between special function agencies (DOJ/DOD/CIA), and the ultimate decision of the President, the NIPC may be placed in a direct support role to either DOD or the Intelligence Community.

Information Sharing and Analysis Center (ISAC): The National Coordinator, working with Sector Coordinators, Sector Liaison Officials and the National Economic Council, shall consult with owners and operators of the critical infrastructures to strongly encourage the creation of a private sector information sharing and analysis center. The actual design and functions of the center and its relation to the NIPC will be determined by the private sector, in consultation with and with assistance from the Federal Government,. Within 180 days of this directive, the National Coordinator, with the assistance of the CICG including the National Economic Council, shall identify possible methods of providing federal assistance to facilitate the startup of an ISAC.

Such a center could serve as the mechanism for gathering, analyzing, appropriately sanitizing and disseminating private sector information to both industry and the NIPC. The center could also gather, analyze and disseminate information from the NIPC for further distribution to the private sector. While crucial to a successful government-industry partnership, this mechanism for sharing important information about vulnerabilities, threats, intrusions and anomalies is not to interfere with direct information exchanges between companies and the government.

As ultimately designed by private sector representatives, the ISAC may emulate particular aspects of such institutions as the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention that have proved highly effective, particularly it extensive interchanges with the private and non-federal sectors. Under such a model, the ISAC would possess a large degree of technical focus and expertise and non-regulatory and non-law enforcement missions. it would establish baseline statistics and patterns on the various infrastructures, become a clearinghouse for information within and among the various sectors, and provide a library for historical data to be used be the private sector and, as deemed appropriate by the ISAC, by the government. Critical to the success of such an institution would be its timeliness, accessibility, coordination, flexibility, utility and acceptability.

Annex B: Additional Taskings

Studies

The National Coordinator shall commission studies on the following subjects:

Public Outreach

In order to foster a climate of enhanced public sensitivity to the problem of infrastructure protection, the following actions shall be taken:

Internal Federal Government Actions

In order for the Federal Government to improve its infrastructure security these immediate steps shall be taken:

Assisting the Private Sector

In order to assist the private sector in achieving and maintaining infrastructure security:

[signed:] Bill Clinton


Source: DoD web site, courtesy of RT.

178 posted on 03/01/2002 12:47:11 PM PST by archy
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To: Hoosier Patriot
Lie to me, and you're a lier. Simple as that.

li.er /'lI(-&)r/ noun
- lie low 1 : to lie prostrate, defeated, or disgraced 2 : to stay in hiding : strive to avoid notice 3 : to bide one's time : remain secretly ready for action

Honest, I'm no liar.
179 posted on 03/01/2002 12:47:57 PM PST by BJClinton
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To: anniegetyourgun
I feel the same way about these that I feel about the "massive government conspiracy" that would take place amongst ham radio operators in the event of a major disaster in my vicinity 3 years ago - or 3 months ago.

Well, call me ignorant, but I'll be darned if I can glean an answer to my question from that response. I know very well that you know how you feel about it, but short of reading your mind, I don't know how you feel about it, hence my question. And no, I'm not talking about "government conspiracy/ham radio operators/your vicinity." The subject is shadow government.

180 posted on 03/01/2002 12:49:01 PM PST by Hoosier Patriot
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