Posted on 02/18/2002 11:03:34 AM PST by Sam_Watkins
Estimated 20,000 Orthodox Jews demonstrating on Tuesday February 12th, in front of the Israeli Consulate in New York City, organized by the Central Rabbinical Congress of USA and Canada, to voice their opposition to the existence of the state of Israel, their suppression of religion and brutal treatment of religious people.
The posters read as follows: [L-R] "Israel" dos not represent world Jewry
Rabbinical leaders fought Zionism since its inception
Authentic Rabbis always opposed Zionism and the State of Israel
Zionism have no right to rule over any part of the holy land
No doubt! Herzl's dream was a catastrophe for Jews
Zionism stole the name of Jews
"Israel" dos not represent world Jewry
Jews mourn 53 years existence of "Israel"
True Jews will never recognize Israel
Torah Jewry is united against Zionism & the State of Israel
Zionist ideology opposes the Creator
Oh No! Zionism will never succeed
We are against "Israel" because we are Jews
Zionism and Judaism are extreme opposites
Background sign: Israeli government: stop oppressing religious Jewry in the State of Israel
You are projecting. I am quite mellow tonight...(-: I think that sweating you think you hear is the poster who wanted to see 'the real' Veronica. (-;
Look at the pictures, 40 or 50 and a dozen and a half signs. Use a multiplier. There might have been 75,000 there. Like the Million Mom March. As far as I can tell, the only NY Times coverage, amazingly, was the ads. I would have expected an editorial.
This thread is probably more coverage that Naturei Karta has had in the last 50 years.
LOL.
Indeed we do. These are the essentials of human conscience (God's law as inscribed on each human heart) which you will find to one degree or another in any civilization, faith or culture which seeks, loves and is OBEDIENT to truth.
(BenF -- this is the point on which I was trying to correct you re: the Protestant v. the Catholic teaching. I can go back to that thread if you wish but my point was that you will not see a faithful Catholic damning anyone to hell who serves God by remaining obedient to His law.)
I tried to explain what Orthodoxy is and you found it not so different from your own. So why are you asking the same questions?
I'm not asking the same questions. I was only asking the one question.
You said you'd never seen an objective criticism of Israel.
My follow-up to that was twofold:
Are you going to persist in smearing anyone who contradicts or disagrees with you as somehow insane?
It doesn't reflect well on the substance of your arguments that you feel they need a personal attack on your opponent's sanity affixed for good measure as a matter of course.
That is insufficient and you know it. There are many groups that claim the name and imagine he existed but they are cults or imitations.
And Jews hating the STATE of Israel are not anti-Semites.
If they aid and abet the adversary of Israel they choose evil.
Did you forget there is a land of Israel that belongs to the children of Israel forever ?
Do you believe the word of the LORD God of Israel ?
Only you when you persist in distorting history.
It doesn't reflect well on the substance of your arguments that you feel they need a personal attack on your opponent's sanity affixed for good measure as a matter of course.
I gave you substance as well. The smear and substance work hand in hand this time. Sure looks good on you.
People on this thread have already said that Jews can criticize Israel. It is allowed.
First of all, I think your use of "fairy tales" is over the top and doesn't address the crux of the problem.
Second, I myself have tried to raise the question of the justice inherent in excusing all manner of action by the State of Israel under the umbrella of respecting God's promise to the Jews. This seems to be the fundamental basis on which any criticism of the STATE of Israel is necessarily an excoriation of the faith of Judaism. I think it's a problem worth addressing in calm and measured debate.
Third, (and closely associated with No. 2), it's exactly this geo-political gamesmanship premised on a disparate respect for religious faith which underlies what I see as the "triangulation" of the People of the Book -- Jew, Christian and Muslim -- and perpetuates the conflict.
As a nation who so consistently denies its own people the right to hold publicly the Judeo-Christian religious convictions which are the foundation of this nation and expressly denies the legitimacy of Muslim law and convention in the Arab states we occupy for whatever reson, it seems odd that we are so overwhelming in favor of respecting and protecting the right of one faith to excuse all manner of action as their just prerogative as endowed by God.
I maintain that it is the militant atheists found at the heart of these matters who have co-opted religion for geo-political purpose only to perpetuate conflict and destroy each of the faiths involved by perverting them to violence in the name of God.
I feel that were we to address the conflict in those universal terms of justice, Good, Evil and that human solidarity and compassion which transcends our differences, we might have the ability to better target the real sources of our conflict, confusion and error.
Ever hopeful.
Excoriating the entire ball of wax as a fight over "fairy tales" is very likely exactly the ultimate objective intended by militant atheists who contrived and sustain this sorry state of affairs.
Alouette's post:
However, holding Israel to a standard of perfection and absolute "morality" that is not at the same time demanded of the Palestinians or any other neighboring Arab nation is indeed subjective, insane, and anti-Jewish.
Your reply:
I would never think of holding the Israelis to a higher standard than so-called "subhuman animals".
Alouette ... I judge acts on their essentially Good or essentially Evil nature. This is one reason I'm so dead against what I call the "alchemy of pragmatism".
We're all human beings, Alouette, and -- though some of us may have been subjected to the conditioning and hatred and ideological oppression that deforms our consciences -- we do have God's law written on our hearts.
We all know right from wrong. It's up to us to hold each other to that minimum standard ... regardless the circumstances
Why did you throw the term "subhuman animals" into the discussion and who were you referring to as "subhuman animals"? I cannot tell from your reply if you are speaking of Israelis or Palestinians.
You then remind(?) Alouette that "We're all human beings, Alouette...", yet you are the one who used the term "subhuman animals" to describe someone, I'm not sure who yet.
It's no wonder these threads get so ugly.
I've never held myself out as an expert on the history of Israel. That's why I've consistently been interested in honest discussion of that history (as on the Political Murder thread) as well as the tenets of Judaism which some Jews do and some Jews don't believe comports with a man-made (as opposed to Messiah ordained) State of Israel.
Seems to me that if every criticism of Israel is going to be deemed anti-semitic (save those criticisms expressed by Jews), the defining quality here is whether or not that critcism is offered IN LIGHT OF Judaic law and tradition.
Time and again, I've evinced my respect and love for Judaism. I've no anti-semitism to speak of.
What I do abhor, however, is the masquerading under "Judaism" of strictly secular sorts, Soviet- or fascist-supported terrorists and atheists. I cannot reconcile clearly immoral acts as somehow condoned simply by virtue of their being perpetrated by the State of Israel or her actors.
Mine is not a Nazi take on "Jewishness" as defined by some admixture of the blood in a man's veins but, rather, his obedience to the Jewish faith. Is there something wrong with that?
We had a nice little discussion the other night about Catholics in the same vein. Many will claim they are "Catholic" even if they support, have procured or assisted to procure an abortion and therefore have obtained a latae sententiae excommunication and are NOT Catholic by letter of Catholic canon law.
Do you see the difference here?
I maintain that it is the militant atheists found at the heart of these matters who have co-opted religion for geo-political purpose only to perpetuate conflict and destroy each of the faiths involved by perverting them to violence in the name of God.
You maintain this conspiracy notion notwithstanding I quoted back to you from Paul Johnson that this notion is nonsensical. Indeed, the suggestion by the "militant atheists" is that it was a world-wide capitalist conspiracy which created the State of Israel. So while you're fantasizing over the latest conspiracy of "militant atheists" and "triangulation" we'll treat this issue with the comity and intelligence it deserves.
I feel that were we to address the conflict in those universal terms of justice, Good, Evil and that human solidarity and compassion which transcends our differences, we might have the ability to better target the real sources of our conflict, confusion and error.
This sounds like a universalist and collectivist ideology surely the kind thinking which "militant atheists" just love to revel in.
One reason these threads get so ugly is that Palestinians and Muslims are sometimes (well, often) dehumanized.
I contend that it's not always a man's fault where or when he is born and under what circumstances his conscience is deformed.
I believe that until you recognize the essential humanity of ALL human beings and fixate on those primordial human tenets of conscience, you have absolutely no hope of cutting through the hatreds and prejudices to bring folks together toward true justice.
Until you can forgive and love your enemies (a very Christian concept, no?), you have no hope of turning them back into your brothers and the conflict will only be perpuated.
By my post, I was hopeful to underscore exactly the absurd and demonic means by which reconciliation between these groups will be forever forestalled by the continued dehumanization of each other on both sides.
Does that clear it up?
You think it was by chance that Poland (now slipping communists back into power) co-opted the term "Solidarity" as it staged for the West one of the most ostensibly Catholic and genuine deceptions of perestroika?
Hardly.
This is exactly what I'm talking about, Lent.
As a student of the gramscian-marxist revolution within the Catholic Church, I am only too well aware of how handily the truth can be perverted -- particularly in language -- to mislead the faithful.
Does that clear it up?
Honestly? No. Here's why:
One reason these threads get so ugly is that Palestinians and Muslims are sometimes (well, often) dehumanized.
Out of 135 posts so far on this thread, you are the only one who has referred to anyone from either side as "subhuman animals".
Only Jews can criticize the State of Israel? How can that be and why should that be the only criticism of Israel allowed?
Do you likewise contend that only Muslims can criticize an Islamic state?
I don't quite follow your "I think they are very dangerous to other Jews." comment. Can you explain that?
Because your associations are trite, simplistic and as I've shown you in great detail already not worthy of the attenuation you like to give them.
I've never held myself out as an expert on the history of Israel. That's why I've consistently been interested in honest discussion of that history (as on the Political Murder thread) as well as the tenets of Judaism which some Jews do and some Jews don't believe comports with a man-made (as opposed to Messiah ordained) State of Israel.
I'm interested in the history. Maybe that's why your simplistic associations are worthy of little discussion except a few dismissive historical examples which I have done.
Seems to me that if every criticism of Israel is going to be deemed anti-semitic (save those criticisms expressed by Jews), the defining quality here is whether or not that critcism is offered IN LIGHT OF Judaic law and tradition.
I speak principally from historical considerations with some nominal understanding of Judaism.
Time and again, I've evinced my respect and love for Judaism. I've no anti-semitism to speak of.
Good for you. Those who opposed the Zionists in the latter 19th and early twentieth century were Jews, Christians, atheists, etc. I wonder what they would say in retrospect?
What I do abhor, however, is the masquerading under "Judaism" of strictly secular sorts, Soviet- or fascist-supported terrorists and atheists. I cannot reconcile clearly immoral acts as somehow condoned simply by virtue of their being perpetrated by the State of Israel or her actors.
More conspiracy nonsense which I stated to you was balderdash.
Mine is not a Nazi take on "Jewishness" as defined by some admixture of the blood in a man's veins but, rather, his obedience to the Jewish faith. Is there something wrong with that?
I look at the historical record and what I know of Judaism. Neither zionism nor Judaism are mutually exclusive
We had a nice little discussion the other night about Catholics in the same vein. Many will claim they are "Catholic" even if they support, have procured or assisted to procure an abortion and therefore have obtained a latae sententiae excommunication and are NOT Catholic by letter of Catholic canon law.
So Catholicism would foreclose repentance and restoration? But I'm not sure what this has to do with Israel.
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