T.U.L..I.P. and why I disagree with it

The term "Calvinism" is used by some people who do not hold Calvin's teaching on predestination and do not understand exactly what Calvin taught.

Dr. Loraine Boettner in his book, 'The reformed Doctrine of Predestination', says, "The Calvinistic system especially emphasized five distinct doctrines. These are technically known as 'The Five Points of Calvinism.' And they are the main pillars upon which the superstructure rests."

Dr. Boettner further says, "The five points may be more easily remembered if they are associated with the word T-U-L-I-P

T - Total Inability; U - Unconditional Election; L - Limited Atonement; I - Irresistible (efficacious) Grace; and P - Perseverance of the Saints." These are the five points of Calvinism.

I have heard people say, "I am a one-point Calvinist, a two-point Calvinist" and so on. Look at each one of these views as taught by Calvin and then see what the Bible has to say on each point. As with any Doctrine, it is no stronger than the foundation upon which it is built and it'll either be built upon sand or the Rock!

By total inability Calvin meant that a lost sinner could not repent and come to Jesus Christ and trust Him as Savior, unless he is foreordained to come to Christ. By total inability he meant that no man has the ability to come to Christ. And unless God overpowers him and gives him that ability, he will never come to Christ.

The Bible teaches total depravity. But that simply means that there is nothing good in man to earn or deserve salvation. The Bible says in Jeremiah 17:9,

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked." While the Bible teaches the depravity of the human race, it no where teaches total inability. The Bible never hints that people are lost because they have no ability to come to Christ. The language of Jesus was (John 5:40),

"You will not come to me, that you might have life." Notice, it is not a matter of whether or not you CAN come to Christ; it is a matter of whether or not you WILL come to Him.

Jesus looked over Jerusalem and wept and said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem. . how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, AND YE WOULD NOT!" (Matt 23:37).

Here again notice, He did not say, "How often I would have gathered you together, but you COULD not." No. He said, "Ye WOULD not!" It was not a matter of whether they could; it was a matter of whether they would.

Rev. 22:17, the last invitation in the Bible says, "And the Spirit and the bride say, COME. And let him that hearth say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

If it is true that no person has the ability to come to Christ, then why would Jesus say in John 5:40, "Ye will not come to me?" Why didn't He simply say, "You cannot come to me"?

Some Calvinists use John 6:44 in an effort to prove total inability. Here the Bible says, "No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him. . ." But the Bible makes it plain in John 12:32 that Christ will draw all men unto Himself, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth will draw ALL men unto me."

All men are drawn to Christ, but not all men will trust Christ as Savior. Every man will make his own decision to trust Christ or to reject Him. The Bible makes it clear that all men have light. (Jn 1:9) Rom. 1:19, 20 indicates that every sinner has been called through the creation about him. Romans 2:11-16 indicates that sinners are called through their conscience, even when they have not heard the gospel.

So in the final analysis, men GO to Hell, not because of their inability to come to Christ, but because they will not come to Him - "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."

The teaching that men, women and children are totally unable to come to Christ and trust Him as Savior is not a scriptural doctrine. The language itself is not scriptural. The foundation of this doctrine is very shaky when looked at in light of what the Scriptures say and not what some men have said.

By unconditional election Calvin meant that some are elected to go to Heaven, while others are elected to go to Hell, and that this election is unconditional. It is wholly on God's part and without condition. By unconditional election Calvin meant that God has already decided who will be saved and who will be lost, and the individual has absolutely nothing to do with it. He can only hope that God has elected him for Heaven and not for Hell.

This teaching so obviously disagrees with the oft-repeated invitations in the Bible to sinners to come to Christ and be saved that some readers will think that I have overstated the doctrine. So I will quote John Calvin in his "Institutes, Book III, chapter 23,"

"...Not all men are created with similar destiny but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say, he is predestined either to life or to death."

So Calvinism teaches that it is God's own choice that some people are to be damned forever. He never intended to save them. He foreordained them to go to Hell. And when He offers salvation in the Bible, He does not offer it to those who were foreordained to be damned. It is offered only to those who were foreordained to be saved.

This teaching insists that we need not try to win men to the Lord because men cannot be saved unless God has planned for them to be saved. And if God has planned for them to be eternally lost, they will not come to Christ.

There is the Bible doctrine of God's foreknowledge, predestination and election. Most knowledgeable Christians agree that God has His controlling hand on the affairs of men. They agree that according to the Bible, He selects individuals like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David as instruments to do certain things He has planned. Most Christians agree that God may choose a nation - particularly that He did choose Israel, through which He gave the law, the prophets, and eventually through whom the Savior Himself would come - and that there is a Bible doctrine that God foreknows all things.

God in His foreknowledge knows who will trust Jesus Christ as Savior, and He has predestined to see that they are justified and glorified. He will keep all those who trust Him and see that they are glorified. But the doctrine that God elected some men to Hell, that they were born to be damned by God's own choice, is a radical heresy not taught anywhere in the Bible.

In the booklet entitled TULIP by Vic Lockman, Lockman attempts to prove the five points of Calvinism. Under the point, Unconditional Election, he quotes Ephesians 1:4, but he only quotes the first part of the verse: "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world." However, that is not the end of the verse. Mr. Lockman, like most Calvinists, stopped in the middle of the verse. The entire verse reads:

"According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." The verse says nothing about being chosen for Heaven or Hell. It says we are chosen that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.

Under the same point, Unconditional Election, Mr. Lockman quotes John 15:16, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Again, Mr. Lockman, like most Calvinists, stops in the middle of the verse. The entire verse reads: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

The verse says nothing about being chosen for Heaven or Hell. It says we are chosen to go and bring forth fruit, which simply means that every Christian is chosen to be a witness for Him and to practice soul winning. Proverbs 11:30 says,

"The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that wins souls is wise." Nowhere does the Bible teach that God wills for some to go to Heaven and wills for others to go to Hell. NO. The Bible teaches that God would have all men to be saved. 2 Pet. 3:9 says that He is

"not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. "I Tim. 2:4 says, "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." Those who teach that God would only have some to be saved, while He would have others to be lost are misrepresenting God and the Bible. Does God really predestinate some people to be saved and predestinate others to go to Hell, so that they have no free choice?

Absolutely not! Nobody is predestined to be saved, except as He chooses of his own free will to come to Christ and trust Him for salvation. And no one is predestined to go to Hell, except as he chooses of his own free will to reject Christ and refuses to trust Him as Savior. John 3:36 says, "He that believes on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on Him."

Nothing could be plainer. The man who goes to Heaven goes because he comes to Jesus Christ and trusts Him as Savior. And the man who goes to Hell does so because he refuses to come to Jesus Christ and will not trust Him as Savior.

By limited atonement, Calvin meant that Christ died only for the elect, for those He planned and ordained to go to Heaven: He did not die for those He planned and ordained to go to Hell. Again I say, such language is not in the Bible, and the doctrine wholly contradicts many, many plain Scriptures.

For instance, the Bible says in I John 2:2, "He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

The teaching of Calvinism on Limited Atonement contradicts the express statement of Scripture. First Timothy 2:5-6 says, "The man Christ Jesus; Who gave Himself a ransom for all. . . ." The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Savior of the world. Jn 4:42 says, "and said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world."

Again, I John 4:14, "and we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world." The Scriptures make it plain that Jesus came to save the world. John 3:17 says, "For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved."

No man will ever look at Jesus and say, "You didn't want to be my Savior." No! No! Jesus wants to be the Savior of all men. As a matter of fact, I Timothy 4:10 says, "For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those who believe."

The Bible teaches that Christ bore the sins of all people. Is. 53:6 says, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.: There are two "ALLS" in this verse. The first "ALL" speaks of the universal fact of sin -

"All we like sheep have gone astray." And the second "ALL" speaks of universal atonement - "and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." The "ALL" in the first part of Isaiah 53:6 covers the same crowd that the "ALL" in the last part of that verse covers. If we all went astray, then the iniquities of all were laid on Christ.

Not only did He bear the sins of us all, but the Bible plainly teaches that He died for the whole world. Look at I John 2:2,

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

If that isn't plain enough, the Bible says His death was for every man; (Hebrews 2:9)

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN" .

Nothing could be plainer than the fact that Jesus Christ died for every man. First Timothy 2:5-6 says, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all. . . ."

Romans 8:32 states, "He that spared not His own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?"

Look at the statements - statement after statement: "that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man"; "Who gave himself a ransom for all"; "delivered him up for us all." John 3:16 has been called "the heart of the Bible." It has been called "the Bible in miniature." "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Jesus died for the whole world. He suffered Hell for every man who has ever lived or ever will live. And no man will look out of Hell and say, "I wanted to be saved, but Jesus did not die for me.

Some argue that if Jesus died for the whole world, the whole world would be saved. No. The death of Christ on the cross was sufficient for all, but it is efficient only to those who believe. The death of Jesus Christ on the cross made it possible for every man everywhere to be saved. but only those who believe that He died to pay their sin debt and who trust Him completely fro salvation will be saved.

Again I quote John 3:36, "He that believes on the Son hath everlasting life. . . ." Everybody is potentially saved, but everybody is not actually saved until he recognizes that he is a sinner, believes that Jesus Christ died on the cross to pay the sin debt, rose from the grave on the third day, and trust Him completely for salvation.

The atonement is not limited. It is as universal as sin. Romans 5:20 says, "But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." Isaiah 53:6 states, "all we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all."

The fourth point of Calvinism is irresistible grace. By irresistible grace, John Calvin meant that God simply forces people to be saved. God elected some to be saved, and He let Jesus die for that elect group.

And now by irresistible grace, He forces those He elected, and those Jesus Christ died for to be saved.

The truth of the matter is, there is no such thing as irresistible grace. Nowhere in the Bible does the word "irresistible" appear before the word "grace." That terminology is simply not in the Bible. It is the philosophy of John Calvin, not a Bible doctrine. The word "irresistible" doesn't even sound right in front of the word "grace."

Grace means "God's unmerited favor." Grace is an attitude, not a power. If Calvin had talked about the irresistible drawing power of God, it would have made more sense. But instead, he represents grace as the irresistible act of God compelling a man to be saved who does not want to be saved, so that a man has no choice in the matter at all, except as God forcibly puts a choice in his mind. Calvinism teaches that man has no part in salvation, and cannot possibly cooperate with God in the matter. In no sense of the word and at no stage of the work does salvation depend upon the will or work of man or wait for the determination of his will.

Does the Bible say anything about irresistible grace? Absolutely not! The Scriptures show that men do resist and reject God. Prov.29:1 states, "He, that being often reproved hardens his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy." Notice the word "OFTEN" in this verse. If God only gave one opportunity to be saved, then man could not complain. But here the Bible says, "He, that being often reproved. . . ." This means the man was reproved over and over again. Not only was he reproved many times, but he was reproved often.

But the Bible says he "hardens his neck" and "shall suddenly be destroyed, and without remedy." That certainly doesn't sound like irresistible grace. The Bible teaches that a man can be reproved over and over again, and he can harden his neck against God, and as a result will be destroyed without remedy.

Again Proverbs 1:24-26 says, "Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would have none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear comes."

Here the Bible plainly says, "I have called, and ye have refused. . .but ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would have none of my reproof." That doesn't sound like irresistible grace. God calls, and men refuse. Is that irresistible? God stretches out His hand and no man regards it?

Is that irresistible grace? No. The Bible makes it plain that some men do reject Christ, and they refuse His call. John 5:40 says, "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." That verse plainly teaches that men can and do resist God and refuse to come to Him.

In Acts 7, we find Stephen preaching. He says in verse 51, "Ye stiff necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." To these Jewish leaders, Stephen said, "Ye do always resist the Holy Ghost." So here were people; some of whom had seen Jesus and heard Him preach; others who had heard Peter at Pentecost; others who had heard Stephen and other Spirit-filled men preaching with great power. And what had they done? They were stiff necked and uncircumcised in their heart and ears. That is, they were stubborn and rebellious against God. The Bible plainly says, "They resisted the holy Ghost."

Notice the words of Stephen in verse 51, "Ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." Here the Bible teaches that not only were these Jewish leaders resisting the Holy ghost, but that their fathers before them had also resisted the Holy Spirit. Stephen says that all the way from Abraham, through the history of the Jewish nation, down to the time of Christ, unconverted Jews had resisted the Holy Spirit.

God offers salvation to all men. Titus 1:11 says, "For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men." But man must make his own choice. He must either receive or reject Christ. John 1:12 says, "But as many as received Him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." When Jesus wept over Jerusalem, he said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

Here again the Bible clearly indicates that God would have gathered them together as a hen gathers her brood, but they would not. That certainly shows that they could reject and resist Christ. "I would, but ye would not" does not fit the teaching of irresistible grace. So people do resist the Holy Spirit. They do refuse to come to Christ. They do harden their necks. They do refuse when God calls.

That means that those who are not saved could have been saved. Those who rejected Christ could have accepted Him. God offers salvation to those who will have it, but does not force it upon anyone who doesn't want it.

The Bible teaches, and I believe in, the eternal security of the born-again believer. The man who has trusted Jesus Christ has ever- lasting life and will never perish. But the eternal security of the believer does not depend upon his perseverance.

I do not know a single Bible verse that says anything about the saints' persevering, but there are several Bible verses that mention the fact that the saints have been preserved. Perseverance is one thing. Preservation is another. No. The saints do not persevere; they are preserved.

The Bible states in Jude 1, "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ. . . ."

First Thessalonians 5:23 says, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

The Bible makes it plain that the believer is kept. He does not keep himself. First Peter 1:4-5 states: "To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fades not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

The Bible says in John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life: and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." Now that doesn't sound like the PERSEVERANCE of the sheep or the saints. Here the sheep are in the Father's hand, and they are safe - not because they persevere, but because they are in the Father's hand.

Charles Spurgeon once said, "I do not believe in the PERSEVERANCE of the saints. I believe in the PERSEVERANCE of the Savior." To be sure, the Bible teaches the eternal security of the believer. But the believer's security has nothing to do with his persevering. We are secure because we are kept by God. We are held in the Father's hand. And according to Ephesians 4:30, we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

There is a belief that if one does not teach universal salvation, he must either be a Calvinist or an Arminian. In his book, "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Dr. Loraine Boettner says on page 47, "There are really only three systems which claim to set forth the way of salvation through Christ [And he names them]: "(1) Universalism, that all will be saved. (2) Arminianism, which holds that Christ died equally and indiscriminately for every individual. . ., that saving grace is not necessarily permanent, but those who are loved of God, ransomed by by God, and born of the Holy Spirit may (let God wish and strive ever so much to the contrary) throw away all and perish eternally; and, (3) Calvinism." He continues, "Only two are held by Christians." That is Calvin's position and Arminius' position."

Calvinists would like to make people believe that if one does not teach universal salvation, he must either be a Calvinist or an Arminian. And since the Arminian position does such violence to the grace of God, many preferred to call themselves Calvinists. But a person doesn't have to take either position.

I am neither Arminian nor Calvinist. I believe in salvation by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ. I believe in the eternal security of the believer. I believe that Jesus Christ died for all men, and I believe what the Bible says,

"That whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." But I disagree with all five points of Calvinism as John Calvin taught it. In conclusion, let me say that Calvin and those who followed him claimed to believe and follow the Bible. They claimed to find at least a germ of the Calvinist doctrine in the Scriptures. But a careful student will find that again and again they go beyond the Scripture, and that Calvinism is a philosophy developed by man and depending on fallible logic and frail, human reasoning, with the perversion of some Scriptures, the misuse of others, and the total ignoring of many clear Scriptures. Calvin did teach many wonderful, true doctrines of Scripture.

It is true that God foreknows everything that will happen in the world. It is true that God definitely ordained and determined some events ahead of time and selected some individuals for His purposes.

It is certain that people are saved by grace, and are kept by the power of God. That far Calvinists may well prove their doctrines by Scriptures. but beyond that, Calvinism goes into a realm of human philosophy.

It is not a Bible doctrine, but a system of human philosophy, especially appealing to the scholarly intellect, the self-sufficient and proud mind. Brilliant, philosophical, scholarly preachers are apt to be misled on this matter more than the humble-hearted, Bible-believing Christian.

I also think that calvinism very weakly deals with verses that say "whosoever will may come."

Read Spurgeon. You have a bunch of pre-conceived notions about Calvinism that are wrong, brother. So does Ward. So does JWinNC.

A lengthy explanation is required by all calvinists for the verses that very clearly spell out universal opportunity.

False. I don't choke on John 3:16.

In the final analysis, it is found that calvinists have twisted around the very meaning of words. Instead of "whosoever will may come," they have them meaning "not just anyone may come."

False. I have never said anything of the sort. I vigorously assert that whosoever will may come.

Your interpretation of text gives us a God who shows favoritism, while the bible says that "God does not show favoritism."

False. The Bible does not say that God does not show favoritism.

Over all other interpretations, I will ALWAYS choose an interpretation that upholds these attributes of God: love, justice, and holiness.

God's love is an amazing thing. But He is holier than you realize. So, your judgment is not sound in the matter of God's fairness or justice or even love.

In fact, I have thought for some time since participating in these threads that you calvinists are in danger for presenting an image of God as being less than loving and demonstrably unfair.

Where in the world are you getting the idea that Calvinistic theology presents God as UNFAIR? You will never understand God's love until you stop maligning things in our position which you don't understand. The Calvinistic system presents God as PERFECTLY FAIR.

Why can't you see this?

These are the areas I see in your ministry that will be burned up, "but you yourself will be saved, yet so as by fire." If you calvinists are correct and our evangelism makes no difference in whether one accepts Christ or not, then no one is ultimately kept from the Lord.

Calvinists do NOT maintain that our evangelism makes no difference.

But if I am correct, and our presentation is part of the Lord's enlightenment plan for countless millions whose very destiny depends on their choice...

But we do maintain that their very destiny depends on their choice.

...then your presentation of the Lord as less loving and less fair and less just than he is COULD WELL cost a soul.

As I said earlier, you simply don't know what you are talking about. God is love AND He is fair AND He is just. All true Calvinists clearly believe and affirm these things.

Such an inadequacy on your part will surely be burned as dross on that Day.

You'd better go back and re-read my last lengthy post to you. You haven't gotten to first base. You don't understand us any more than Wesley understood Whitefield. Please put aside your carnal prejudices and notice what we are saying. Please notice what 1 Corinthians 2:14 is saying.

You fellows are profoundly confused.

Calvinism will dry up a Church real quick!
Many Presbyterian congregations in England, during the 18th century became Unitarian. In this country, in 1924, 1300 Presbyterian ministers singed the Auburn Affirmation, a document which basically repudiated the fundamentals of the faith. The apostasy of the great Calvinistic stronghold in Princeton Seminary is well known. Speaking of Calvinism in Switzerland, Germany and France, the former Calvin College professor Charles Miller elaborates:In all three areas salvation came to be assumed as the natural right of birth. In Calvinist Switzerland and in Germany baptism was presumed to assure salvation and was not only a right but an obligation or citizenship. In France, regardless of life, confession, or intellectual convictions, birth into a Huguenot family presumed not only membership in the Reformed Church but ultimately salvation.(The Other Side of Calvinism, p.139)

Calvinism swept West in Europe. Within 100 years of Calvin's death the most dedicated Calvinists were the Puritans of England--many of whom came to America. The ideas which fed the American Revolution and formed our constitutional government were largely of Calvinist background. Princeton and all the Ivy League did indeed go reprobate, however Calvinist ideas also were the ground in which the Baptist denominations were originally born in England. Most Baptists, indeed most evangelicals hold to at least 3 or 4 of the ACTUAL (not misstated) TULIP points. Total Depravity (I too have never been taught it termed "total inability") Unconditional election (we do nothing to earn our salvation), and Perseverance of the saints (meaning God preserves us--the meaning I've always been taught, not that we in our "strength" persevere--God preserves so we do indeed persevere, by His mercy alone) and even a form of Irresistible grace (no less an Arminian than C.S. Lewis taught this--from his own salvation experience). It's laughable that the author of the article uses the same language formulation as classic Calvinists when attempting to refute Limited Atonement, namely "Sufficient for all but efficient" only for believers (the elect).

I actually think its a sin to bitterly argue these points, especially when the argument is so poor as the posting article. These are mysterious issues... no one's will is violated by the grace of God and yet, as with Israel in the Old Testament, God is calling an elect people of His own, for His own reasons...

I've never really understood the appeal of trying to "parenthesize" Romans 9-11, as then it just makes God acting Calvinistically toward Israel... when I always thought God was consistent.

Back to the original point though, to blame the apostasy of Europe, American universities and Presbyterianism on Calvinism is like blaming wars on Christianity. Just as it is the LACK of Christian virtues which makes "Christian" Europe's history so full of bloodshed, so too it is a LACK of clear honest Biblical thinking--which is called Calvinism--which led and leads to apostasy. You'd be hard put to claim that the Methodists, Episcopalians, Roman Catholics and other historically more Pelagian (read Arminian) denominations are less fallen than Presbyterian and Reformed churches.

Another fact to be reckoned with: The modern missionary movement is FULL of evangelical Presbyterian types. Groups such as Wycliffe Bible Translators (the largest independent protestant mission organization in the world), Campus Crusade, Navigators, and Inter-Varsity also have undue numbers of evangelical Calvinistical types... so the claim that Calvinism stifles the preaching of the Gospel just doesn't hold water. Consider also how few Calvinists in America there are, and their numbers in those para-church organizations are even more notable.

Calvinism swept West in Europe.

Correction, Chrisitanity swept western Europe.

Within 100 years of Calvin's death the most dedicated Calvinists were the Puritans of England--many of whom came to America. The ideas which fed the American Revolution and formed our constitutional government were largely of Calvinist background.

So, the Calvinist would have you believe. The Purtians also drove out of their area those who would not agree with them, thats how Rhode Island got started.

Princeton and all the Ivy League did indeed go reprobate, however Calvinist ideas also were the ground in which the Baptist denominations were originally born in England. Most Baptists, indeed most evangelicals hold to at least 3 or 4 of the ACTUAL (not misstated) TULIP points. Total Depravity (I too have never been taught it termed "total inability") Unconditional election (we do nothing to earn our salvation), and Perseverance of the saints (meaning God preserves us--the meaning I've always been taught, not that we in our "strength" persevere--God preserves so we do indeed persevere, by His mercy alone) and even a form of Irresistible grace (no less an Arminian than C.S. Lewis taught this--from his own salvation experience).

And what is your view on Limited Atonement? Can I have the quote from CS Lewis or am I just suppose to believe you? This is what goes under the heading of Calvinistic discussion, just throw our anything and it is suppose to be accepted as 'gospel'

It's laughable that the author of the article uses the same language formulation as classic Calvinists when attempting to refute Limited Atonement, namely "Sufficient for all but efficient" only for believers (the elect).

Why is that so laughable if that is a true definition. The problem with Limited Atonement is that 1Jn2:2 and Heb.2:9 (to name just two off the top of my head) refute it! Only the philosophical view that no one who God died for could be lost makes Limited Atonment part of the TULIP system.It has no Scriptural support. But then again, that doesn't stop a Calvinist anyway.

What is really laughable is your defense of TULIP. Who cares who believes in it or not, the only question for a Christian is what saith the Scriptures?

You know what I noticed in your post, the same tired Calvinist arguments, No one really understands our view, Calvinism is Christanity, and no scriptures!

I actually think its a sin to bitterly argue these points, especially when the argument is so poor as the posting article.

Get over it!

These are mysterious issues... no one's will is violated by the grace of God and yet, as with Israel in the Old Testament, God is calling an elect people of His own, for His own reasons...

Oh,yea, first talk about the few who God is choosing and rejecting the rest and then talk about how no one's will is being violated. Typical Calvinist doubletalk.

I've never really understood the appeal of trying to "parenthesize" Romans 9-11, as then it just makes God acting Calvinistically toward Israel... when I always thought God was consistent.

The reason you do so is because the Scriptures demand it. When it speaks of those of Pauls and Christ flesh it is speaking of racial Jews. Israel is unconditionally elected, individuals are not.

Back to the original point though, to blame the apostasy of Europe, American universities and Presbyterianism on Calvinism is like blaming wars on Christianity.

No one blamed the apostasy on Calvinism, the point what that it is Calvinists who point out Arminians as the cause of apostasy and apostasy is just as rampant in their churches as Arminian ones.

Just as it is the LACK of Christian virtues which makes "Christian" Europe's history so full of bloodshed, so too it is a LACK of clear honest Biblical thinking--which is called Calvinism--which led and leads to apostasy. You'd be hard put to claim that the Methodists, Episcopalians, Roman Catholics and other historically more Pelagian (read Arminian) denominations are less fallen than Presbyterian and Reformed churches.

No, and you would be hard pressed to say that the Calvinist churches were any less fallen.

How few? I thought you said that most Baptists (Evangicals) adhere to Calvinism!And the statement that you can accept three points and be a Calvinist is nonsense. Even 4pointers are attacked on these sites as being 'fake' Calvinists, as was L.S.Chafer

and their numbers in those para-church organizations are even more notable.

I would say that Arminian type evanglists could easily hold their own with the Calvinists, Wesley, Finney, Billy Sunday, Cartwright, Sam Jones to name a few.

Now, let us get down to brass tacks. On this website it is not the Arminians who are accusing the Calvinists as being 'nonregenerate' because they reject Arminianism. It is the Calvinists who want to make the 'five points' a test of ones Christianity. So we will see just how Scriptural those points are. Do you know not one Calvinist has attempted to even defend TULIP by explaining it!. Everyone whined and moaned about how 'unfair' the article was, the author doesn't understand us, blah, blah, blah.

You don't like it, put up a TULIP article explaining it and get used to the fact that you will be seeing more posts, which will reveal how nonScriptural Calvinism is.

I agree that sin entered into the world through Eve, and then Adam, and that all men since have sinned. I also agree that death in this world is the indirect result of Adam's sin and the direct result of God's curse on the world. Death is general and pertains to all living things. If you are going to assume the man's death is a result of the nature they inherit from Adam, because of his sin, you must come to the stange conclusion that the animals also are Adams descendents, because they also die. Actually, what we inherit is life, but because we are part of the cursed world (here the word 'depraved' may be used correctly, meaning corrupted from its original physical nature). Everything in the world grows old and dies, including the world itself...... We are given life, but we inherit eternal life, living eternaly with God, not from what we ourselves have earned, but only by the grace of God, the free gift of life ever after that He chooses to bestow on His own. Death came through Adam. I don't want to get into a "if Adam hadn't sinned, would we be here" type of arguement, that leads nowhere. The fact is, Adam did sin, and because of that sin, we are all going to die. God will choose whom he will to call his own, the rest will perish. As for the civil discourse we have between us, I am not into the habit of name calling. Nor do I think that I am superior in knowledge, intellect, upbringing, breeding, or any of that, so I don't look down my nose on anyone who disagrees with me. I know my beliefs, and will defend them to the best of my ability, but I will not resort to name calling. Thank you for your compliment.

Woody, I've responded on this to Jerry. I carefully selected my words: our evengelism makes no difference in whether one accepts Christ or not

Now, I didn't say that calvinists aren't historically great evangelizers. I said that their doctrine insists on: (1) irresistible grace (can't say "no" to God) and (2) Unconditional Election (God EXCLUSIVELY picks those who will be saved).

Woody, it is a logical necessity of those two points that they at least mean that "neither the person nor any other" can withstand what God has elected to do and uses his power to insist upon.

Many calvinists evangelize, then, because of "obedience." They do so because God told them to. Others, and you know this is so, (1) Don't believe there is any point in doing so AT ALL, OR (2) Do so "resignedly;" i.e., as an illogical chore (as opposed to a matter of obedience.)

No Calvinist, however, can affirm irresistible grace, unconditional election, and some notion that their behavior could be an integral factor in "whether one accepts Christ or not."

Someone wrote on one of the threads recently about Calvinists being of a nature to "life someone's coat to see if they have stripes down their back (or something like that." That is appropriate for Calvinists who OBEDIENTLY evangelize: there's is an "identification" campaign, helping to IDENTIFY those God has already elected who will inevitibly be irresistibly drawn.

Re. 472.

You also misquote the Apostle Peter, terribly. (You really need to be more careful of this.)

Peter says:

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." (Acts 10:34)

In no way is Peter talking about God not exercising favoritism towards individuals. (If you don't believe that God exercises favoritism toward individuals, then you have neglected to read the whole of Scripture. From beginning to end it shows God's choice of one individual over another, and one group over another.)

In Acts 10, Peter is expressing the fact that God has opened up the Gospel to the Gentiles. You cannot lift verses entirely out of context and prooftext them for your purposes. This is a very shoody handling of the Word of truth.

Also notice, that Peter says that God accepts those who fear him and work righteousness. We affirm that this is true, even if you might scratch your head and wonder how we could do that. The Gospel really is the power of God to save all those who believe.

The unregenerate cannot even know the things of the Spirit because they are spiritually discerned.

Using 1 Corinthians 2:14 as you do, you are contradicting other scripture, such as Ezekiel 18 where the wicked man turns. (Not to mention the fact that a righteous man can also turn to wickedness.)

Another example is Colossians 2:12,13: having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. 13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ.

No doubt, God does the work, but the vehicle He chooses, according to this passage, is baptism produced by a "faith in the power of God."

Now, how can said unregenerate person, incapable of knowing anything spiritual, have a "faith in the power of God"? Keep in mind that according to this passage, you can't be raised until you are buried in baptism. The "faith in the power of God" is required for the baptism, and the baptism is required for regeneration.

According to this passage, you must believe, then act on that belief, then you are saved. According to you, one must be saved, then believe, then act on that belief.

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