T.U.L..I.P. and why I disagree with it

The term "Calvinism" is used by some people who do not hold Calvin's teaching on predestination and do not understand exactly what Calvin taught.

Dr. Loraine Boettner in his book, 'The reformed Doctrine of Predestination', says, "The Calvinistic system especially emphasized five distinct doctrines. These are technically known as 'The Five Points of Calvinism.' And they are the main pillars upon which the superstructure rests."

Dr. Boettner further says, "The five points may be more easily remembered if they are associated with the word T-U-L-I-P

T - Total Inability; U - Unconditional Election; L - Limited Atonement; I - Irresistible (efficacious) Grace; and P - Perseverance of the Saints." These are the five points of Calvinism.

I have heard people say, "I am a one-point Calvinist, a two-point Calvinist" and so on. Look at each one of these views as taught by Calvin and then see what the Bible has to say on each point. As with any Doctrine, it is no stronger than the foundation upon which it is built and it'll either be built upon sand or the Rock!

By total inability Calvin meant that a lost sinner could not repent and come to Jesus Christ and trust Him as Savior, unless he is foreordained to come to Christ. By total inability he meant that no man has the ability to come to Christ. And unless God overpowers him and gives him that ability, he will never come to Christ.

The Bible teaches total depravity. But that simply means that there is nothing good in man to earn or deserve salvation. The Bible says in Jeremiah 17:9,

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked." While the Bible teaches the depravity of the human race, it no where teaches total inability. The Bible never hints that people are lost because they have no ability to come to Christ. The language of Jesus was (John 5:40),

"You will not come to me, that you might have life." Notice, it is not a matter of whether or not you CAN come to Christ; it is a matter of whether or not you WILL come to Him.

Jesus looked over Jerusalem and wept and said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem. . how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, AND YE WOULD NOT!" (Matt 23:37).

Here again notice, He did not say, "How often I would have gathered you together, but you COULD not." No. He said, "Ye WOULD not!" It was not a matter of whether they could; it was a matter of whether they would.

Rev. 22:17, the last invitation in the Bible says, "And the Spirit and the bride say, COME. And let him that hearth say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

If it is true that no person has the ability to come to Christ, then why would Jesus say in John 5:40, "Ye will not come to me?" Why didn't He simply say, "You cannot come to me"?

Some Calvinists use John 6:44 in an effort to prove total inability. Here the Bible says, "No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent me draw him. . ." But the Bible makes it plain in John 12:32 that Christ will draw all men unto Himself, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth will draw ALL men unto me."

All men are drawn to Christ, but not all men will trust Christ as Savior. Every man will make his own decision to trust Christ or to reject Him. The Bible makes it clear that all men have light. (Jn 1:9) Rom. 1:19, 20 indicates that every sinner has been called through the creation about him. Romans 2:11-16 indicates that sinners are called through their conscience, even when they have not heard the gospel.

So in the final analysis, men GO to Hell, not because of their inability to come to Christ, but because they will not come to Him - "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life."

The teaching that men, women and children are totally unable to come to Christ and trust Him as Savior is not a scriptural doctrine. The language itself is not scriptural. The foundation of this doctrine is very shaky when looked at in light of what the Scriptures say and not what some men have said.

By unconditional election Calvin meant that some are elected to go to Heaven, while others are elected to go to Hell, and that this election is unconditional. It is wholly on God's part and without condition. By unconditional election Calvin meant that God has already decided who will be saved and who will be lost, and the individual has absolutely nothing to do with it. He can only hope that God has elected him for Heaven and not for Hell.

This teaching so obviously disagrees with the oft-repeated invitations in the Bible to sinners to come to Christ and be saved that some readers will think that I have overstated the doctrine. So I will quote John Calvin in his "Institutes, Book III, chapter 23,"

"...Not all men are created with similar destiny but eternal life is foreordained for some, and eternal damnation for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say, he is predestined either to life or to death."

So Calvinism teaches that it is God's own choice that some people are to be damned forever. He never intended to save them. He foreordained them to go to Hell. And when He offers salvation in the Bible, He does not offer it to those who were foreordained to be damned. It is offered only to those who were foreordained to be saved.

This teaching insists that we need not try to win men to the Lord because men cannot be saved unless God has planned for them to be saved. And if God has planned for them to be eternally lost, they will not come to Christ.

There is the Bible doctrine of God's foreknowledge, predestination and election. Most knowledgeable Christians agree that God has His controlling hand on the affairs of men. They agree that according to the Bible, He selects individuals like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and David as instruments to do certain things He has planned. Most Christians agree that God may choose a nation - particularly that He did choose Israel, through which He gave the law, the prophets, and eventually through whom the Savior Himself would come - and that there is a Bible doctrine that God foreknows all things.

God in His foreknowledge knows who will trust Jesus Christ as Savior, and He has predestined to see that they are justified and glorified. He will keep all those who trust Him and see that they are glorified. But the doctrine that God elected some men to Hell, that they were born to be damned by God's own choice, is a radical heresy not taught anywhere in the Bible.

In the booklet entitled TULIP by Vic Lockman, Lockman attempts to prove the five points of Calvinism. Under the point, Unconditional Election, he quotes Ephesians 1:4, but he only quotes the first part of the verse: "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world." However, that is not the end of the verse. Mr. Lockman, like most Calvinists, stopped in the middle of the verse. The entire verse reads:

"According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." The verse says nothing about being chosen for Heaven or Hell. It says we are chosen that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.

Under the same point, Unconditional Election, Mr. Lockman quotes John 15:16, "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Again, Mr. Lockman, like most Calvinists, stops in the middle of the verse. The entire verse reads: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

The verse says nothing about being chosen for Heaven or Hell. It says we are chosen to go and bring forth fruit, which simply means that every Christian is chosen to be a witness for Him and to practice soul winning. Proverbs 11:30 says,

"The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that wins souls is wise." Nowhere does the Bible teach that God wills for some to go to Heaven and wills for others to go to Hell. NO. The Bible teaches that God would have all men to be saved. 2 Pet. 3:9 says that He is

"not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. "I Tim. 2:4 says, "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." Those who teach that God would only have some to be saved, while He would have others to be lost are misrepresenting God and the Bible. Does God really predestinate some people to be saved and predestinate others to go to Hell, so that they have no free choice?

Absolutely not! Nobody is predestined to be saved, except as He chooses of his own free will to come to Christ and trust Him for salvation. And no one is predestined to go to Hell, except as he chooses of his own free will to reject Christ and refuses to trust Him as Savior. John 3:36 says, "He that believes on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on Him."

Nothing could be plainer. The man who goes to Heaven goes because he comes to Jesus Christ and trusts Him as Savior. And the man who goes to Hell does so because he refuses to come to Jesus Christ and will not trust Him as Savior.

By limited atonement, Calvin meant that Christ died only for the elect, for those He planned and ordained to go to Heaven: He did not die for those He planned and ordained to go to Hell. Again I say, such language is not in the Bible, and the doctrine wholly contradicts many, many plain Scriptures.

For instance, the Bible says in I John 2:2, "He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

The teaching of Calvinism on Limited Atonement contradicts the express statement of Scripture. First Timothy 2:5-6 says, "The man Christ Jesus; Who gave Himself a ransom for all. . . ." The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Savior of the world. Jn 4:42 says, "and said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world."

Again, I John 4:14, "and we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world." The Scriptures make it plain that Jesus came to save the world. John 3:17 says, "For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved."

No man will ever look at Jesus and say, "You didn't want to be my Savior." No! No! Jesus wants to be the Savior of all men. As a matter of fact, I Timothy 4:10 says, "For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those who believe."

The Bible teaches that Christ bore the sins of all people. Is. 53:6 says, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.: There are two "ALLS" in this verse. The first "ALL" speaks of the universal fact of sin -

"All we like sheep have gone astray." And the second "ALL" speaks of universal atonement - "and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." The "ALL" in the first part of Isaiah 53:6 covers the same crowd that the "ALL" in the last part of that verse covers. If we all went astray, then the iniquities of all were laid on Christ.

Not only did He bear the sins of us all, but the Bible plainly teaches that He died for the whole world. Look at I John 2:2,

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

If that isn't plain enough, the Bible says His death was for every man; (Hebrews 2:9)

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN" .

Nothing could be plainer than the fact that Jesus Christ died for every man. First Timothy 2:5-6 says, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all. . . ."

Romans 8:32 states, "He that spared not His own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?"

Look at the statements - statement after statement: "that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man"; "Who gave himself a ransom for all"; "delivered him up for us all." John 3:16 has been called "the heart of the Bible." It has been called "the Bible in miniature." "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Jesus died for the whole world. He suffered Hell for every man who has ever lived or ever will live. And no man will look out of Hell and say, "I wanted to be saved, but Jesus did not die for me.

Some argue that if Jesus died for the whole world, the whole world would be saved. No. The death of Christ on the cross was sufficient for all, but it is efficient only to those who believe. The death of Jesus Christ on the cross made it possible for every man everywhere to be saved. but only those who believe that He died to pay their sin debt and who trust Him completely fro salvation will be saved.

Again I quote John 3:36, "He that believes on the Son hath everlasting life. . . ." Everybody is potentially saved, but everybody is not actually saved until he recognizes that he is a sinner, believes that Jesus Christ died on the cross to pay the sin debt, rose from the grave on the third day, and trust Him completely for salvation.

The atonement is not limited. It is as universal as sin. Romans 5:20 says, "But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound." Isaiah 53:6 states, "all we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all."

The fourth point of Calvinism is irresistible grace. By irresistible grace, John Calvin meant that God simply forces people to be saved. God elected some to be saved, and He let Jesus die for that elect group.

And now by irresistible grace, He forces those He elected, and those Jesus Christ died for to be saved.

The truth of the matter is, there is no such thing as irresistible grace. Nowhere in the Bible does the word "irresistible" appear before the word "grace." That terminology is simply not in the Bible. It is the philosophy of John Calvin, not a Bible doctrine. The word "irresistible" doesn't even sound right in front of the word "grace."

Grace means "God's unmerited favor." Grace is an attitude, not a power. If Calvin had talked about the irresistible drawing power of God, it would have made more sense. But instead, he represents grace as the irresistible act of God compelling a man to be saved who does not want to be saved, so that a man has no choice in the matter at all, except as God forcibly puts a choice in his mind. Calvinism teaches that man has no part in salvation, and cannot possibly cooperate with God in the matter. In no sense of the word and at no stage of the work does salvation depend upon the will or work of man or wait for the determination of his will.

Does the Bible say anything about irresistible grace? Absolutely not! The Scriptures show that men do resist and reject God. Prov.29:1 states, "He, that being often reproved hardens his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy." Notice the word "OFTEN" in this verse. If God only gave one opportunity to be saved, then man could not complain. But here the Bible says, "He, that being often reproved. . . ." This means the man was reproved over and over again. Not only was he reproved many times, but he was reproved often.

But the Bible says he "hardens his neck" and "shall suddenly be destroyed, and without remedy." That certainly doesn't sound like irresistible grace. The Bible teaches that a man can be reproved over and over again, and he can harden his neck against God, and as a result will be destroyed without remedy.

Again Proverbs 1:24-26 says, "Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would have none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear comes."

Here the Bible plainly says, "I have called, and ye have refused. . .but ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would have none of my reproof." That doesn't sound like irresistible grace. God calls, and men refuse. Is that irresistible? God stretches out His hand and no man regards it?

Is that irresistible grace? No. The Bible makes it plain that some men do reject Christ, and they refuse His call. John 5:40 says, "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." That verse plainly teaches that men can and do resist God and refuse to come to Him.

In Acts 7, we find Stephen preaching. He says in verse 51, "Ye stiff necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." To these Jewish leaders, Stephen said, "Ye do always resist the Holy Ghost." So here were people; some of whom had seen Jesus and heard Him preach; others who had heard Peter at Pentecost; others who had heard Stephen and other Spirit-filled men preaching with great power. And what had they done? They were stiff necked and uncircumcised in their heart and ears. That is, they were stubborn and rebellious against God. The Bible plainly says, "They resisted the holy Ghost."

Notice the words of Stephen in verse 51, "Ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." Here the Bible teaches that not only were these Jewish leaders resisting the Holy ghost, but that their fathers before them had also resisted the Holy Spirit. Stephen says that all the way from Abraham, through the history of the Jewish nation, down to the time of Christ, unconverted Jews had resisted the Holy Spirit.

God offers salvation to all men. Titus 1:11 says, "For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men." But man must make his own choice. He must either receive or reject Christ. John 1:12 says, "But as many as received Him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." When Jesus wept over Jerusalem, he said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathers her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

Here again the Bible clearly indicates that God would have gathered them together as a hen gathers her brood, but they would not. That certainly shows that they could reject and resist Christ. "I would, but ye would not" does not fit the teaching of irresistible grace. So people do resist the Holy Spirit. They do refuse to come to Christ. They do harden their necks. They do refuse when God calls.

That means that those who are not saved could have been saved. Those who rejected Christ could have accepted Him. God offers salvation to those who will have it, but does not force it upon anyone who doesn't want it.

The Bible teaches, and I believe in, the eternal security of the born-again believer. The man who has trusted Jesus Christ has ever- lasting life and will never perish. But the eternal security of the believer does not depend upon his perseverance.

I do not know a single Bible verse that says anything about the saints' persevering, but there are several Bible verses that mention the fact that the saints have been preserved. Perseverance is one thing. Preservation is another. No. The saints do not persevere; they are preserved.

The Bible states in Jude 1, "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ. . . ."

First Thessalonians 5:23 says, "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

The Bible makes it plain that the believer is kept. He does not keep himself. First Peter 1:4-5 states: "To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fades not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

The Bible says in John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life: and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." Now that doesn't sound like the PERSEVERANCE of the sheep or the saints. Here the sheep are in the Father's hand, and they are safe - not because they persevere, but because they are in the Father's hand.

Charles Spurgeon once said, "I do not believe in the PERSEVERANCE of the saints. I believe in the PERSEVERANCE of the Savior." To be sure, the Bible teaches the eternal security of the believer. But the believer's security has nothing to do with his persevering. We are secure because we are kept by God. We are held in the Father's hand. And according to Ephesians 4:30, we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

There is a belief that if one does not teach universal salvation, he must either be a Calvinist or an Arminian. In his book, "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Dr. Loraine Boettner says on page 47, "There are really only three systems which claim to set forth the way of salvation through Christ [And he names them]: "(1) Universalism, that all will be saved. (2) Arminianism, which holds that Christ died equally and indiscriminately for every individual. . ., that saving grace is not necessarily permanent, but those who are loved of God, ransomed by by God, and born of the Holy Spirit may (let God wish and strive ever so much to the contrary) throw away all and perish eternally; and, (3) Calvinism." He continues, "Only two are held by Christians." That is Calvin's position and Arminius' position."

Calvinists would like to make people believe that if one does not teach universal salvation, he must either be a Calvinist or an Arminian. And since the Arminian position does such violence to the grace of God, many preferred to call themselves Calvinists. But a person doesn't have to take either position.

I am neither Arminian nor Calvinist. I believe in salvation by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ. I believe in the eternal security of the believer. I believe that Jesus Christ died for all men, and I believe what the Bible says,

"That whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." But I disagree with all five points of Calvinism as John Calvin taught it. In conclusion, let me say that Calvin and those who followed him claimed to believe and follow the Bible. They claimed to find at least a germ of the Calvinist doctrine in the Scriptures. But a careful student will find that again and again they go beyond the Scripture, and that Calvinism is a philosophy developed by man and depending on fallible logic and frail, human reasoning, with the perversion of some Scriptures, the misuse of others, and the total ignoring of many clear Scriptures. Calvin did teach many wonderful, true doctrines of Scripture.

It is true that God foreknows everything that will happen in the world. It is true that God definitely ordained and determined some events ahead of time and selected some individuals for His purposes.

It is certain that people are saved by grace, and are kept by the power of God. That far Calvinists may well prove their doctrines by Scriptures. but beyond that, Calvinism goes into a realm of human philosophy.

It is not a Bible doctrine, but a system of human philosophy, especially appealing to the scholarly intellect, the self-sufficient and proud mind. Brilliant, philosophical, scholarly preachers are apt to be misled on this matter more than the humble-hearted, Bible-believing Christian.

"One thing that none of us have mentioned yet is the fact that TULIP is a gross oversimplification of Reformed theology that arose out of a need to refute the five points of the Arminian Remonstant faction. As such, it does not fully define the Biblical predestinarian theology that is nicknamed "Calvinism"."

There were "5 points of Arminianism" before there were the "5 points of Calvinism" that refuted them: Here are the 5 points of Arminianism. This was a system of thought contained in the "Remonstrance". It was submitted by the Arminians to the Church of Holland in 1610 for adoption but was rejected by the Synod of Dort in 1619 on the ground that it was unscriptural.

THE 5 POINTS OF ARMINIANISM:

1.) Free Will or Human Ability.

Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but he does not interfere with man's freedom. Eadch sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists in his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to cooperate with God's spirit and be regenerated or to resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution to salvation.

2.) Conditional Election.

God's choice of certain individuals to salvation before the foundation of the world was based on his foreseeing that they would respond to his call. He selected only those whom he knew would of themselves freely believe the Gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned on what a person would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which he based his choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holyspirit) but resulted from man's free will, cooperating the Spirit's working. God chose those whom he knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. In this sense God's election is conditional.

3.) Universal Redemption, or General Atonement.

Christ's redeeming work, made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all people and for every person, only those who believe on him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if a person chooses to accept it.

4.) The Holy Spirit Able To Be Effectually Resisted.

The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the Gospel invitation; he does all that he can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy spirit can draw to Christ only those who allow him to have his way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by men.

5.) Falling From Grace.

Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith.

Not all Arminians agree on this point; some hold that believers are eternally secure in Christ - that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost.

Here are the 5 points of Calvinism. This system of theology was reaffirmed by the Synod of Dort in 1619 as the doctrine of salvation contained in the Holy Scriptures. The system was at that time formulated into "five points" (in answer to the five points submitted by the Arminians) and has ever since been known as "the five points of Calvinism".

THE 5 POINTS OF CALVINISM

1.) Total Inability or Total Depravity

Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the Gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is sinful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ -- it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation. Salvation is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

2.) Unconditional Election

God's choice of certain individuals to salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in his own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any unforseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom he selected. These acts are the result, not the cause, of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned on any virtuous quality or act forseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected he brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

3.) Particular Redemption, or Limited Atonement

Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. In addition to putting away the sins of his people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith, which unites them to him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation.

4.) The Efficacious Call of The Spirit, or Irresistible Grace

In addition to the outward general call to salvation, which is made to everyone who hears the Gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitable brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be, and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in his work of applying salvation to man's will , nor is he dependant on man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

5.) Perseverance of the Saints

All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end.

The source for both the 5 points of Arminianism and the 5 points of Calviniam is: "Charts of Christian Theology and Doctrine" by H. Wayne House

Jesus never asssumed that everyone would hear His knock

He did? Wow, He was just 'messing with us' then?

Matthew 11 15He who has ears, let him hear.

How did we get into Matthew? Anyway, it is a potential for anyone who chooses to hear or not.

Can a dead man hear the knock and open the door?

Oh, so we are back to the corpse analogy again. What about Acts.17:27 where man is 'groping', if he hears that door can't he grope and find it? Calvinists love to have it both ways. Man is not a corpse, but is in darkness. God will supply the light (2Cor.4:6) if man wants it. Now, this is where you have a hard time,

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved (Jn.3:19-20)

They know of the light but reject it! Here is Woody's contention of the unbeliever hating God. That is correct, if that unbeliever has made a choice against God, either at the recognition of God existance (Rom.1:20-21) or hearing and rejecting the Gospel as noted above.

Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

Yes, we were dead in our transgression and sins, no argument there. But due to God's great love for us he provided salvation for all men (Jn.3:16,Eph.2:4,8)if they will only believe (Jn.16:9)

Colossians 2 13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[1] God made you[2] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

And how were we made alive? By faith in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom.3:22) which faith is not a work, but grace (Rom.4:4-5)

If you are willing to believe in Christ then you are NOT "totally depraved" and there IS something good in you (to earn salvation).

Now, you know even the Calvinists do not believe man is so depraved that he cannot do any good. Calvinism Total Depravity really means Total inability, to do anything for his salvation.

Since, however it is a free gift, responding to the offer is not a work. Is it a 'good' thing. Yes, for the one responding it is. But God reveals the truth to him so the man can make that choice (2Cor.4:6)

man cannot do anything Has an Arminian EVER answered this? Isn't your desire to follow Christ, the "good thing" that merits your salvation.

No Christian ever 'merits' anything (Rom.4:4-5) it is a free gift (Rom.6:23)

The Bible never hints that people are lost because they have no ability to come to Christ. This is correct. People are lost because they have no desire to come to Christ. Calvin would call it a voluntary slavery. That is what Jeremiah 17:9 teaches: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked."

I am really unconcerned what Calvin called anything. What does the Bible say about it. God states that He wants all men to be saved (1Tim2:4) and Christ said He would draw all men to Him (Jn.12:32).

It always drives me crazy when people explain Calvinism incorrectly, before they pitifully attempt to discredit it.

Well, I have never yet met a Calvinist who stated that anyone explained Calvinism correctly. It must be one of those great mysteries that only Calvinists can understand. Frankly, the issue is the Bible vs TULIP!

Since ftd (along with others) thinks that he knows the Calvinist position on all things,

Oh, no I never said that! I believe that no one, not even you, know the Calvinist position! It changes moment to moment based on the need!

then how about discussing the following that I recently posted on another thread. The fact that no non-Calvinist has addressed this topic as of yet is really very telling:

Well, now my feelings are hurt! Why did you not 'ping' me?

I did want to introduce another thought for us to ruminate on: Many of our "Calvinist v. non-Calvinist" discussions have contained a considerable about of wrangling about "free-will". Oft times, the non-Calvinists accuse the Calvinists of denying "free-will",

We know you do not 'deny'it, you just make it a nondefinition (the sinner is 'free to sin' but not free to choose for Christ-oh yea, real free will (1984 stuff))

yet they never do give (in my opinion) a satisfactory definition of exactly what "free-will" is. We Calvinists have many times given our definition of "free-will", to wit: "man is free to do that which he wants".

Actually, free will is to choose between alternatives.

Now, with that preface out of the way, I would ask this question: Will a saved, glorified man who has entered into the eternal presence of God have the ability to sin?

No.

If not, then doesn't this violate his "free-will", as defined by the non- Calvinist?

No, because he already made his choice by believing in Christ. Once that is done, he has been committed to what God has for him. Man's choices are not open ended.

After all, how could that man be "free indeed" in Christ if he is not allowed the choice to sin? I will give the Calvinist answer. The saved, glorified man has the same "free-will" that the lost, unregenerate man has. The saved, glorified man wants to glorify God, and is free to do so, and will do so forever. The lost, unregenerate man wants to sin, and is free to do so, and will continue to do so until he is either regenerated or stands before God in judgment. However, neither man is free to do that for which he has no ability. The man who is dead in trespasses and sins has no ability to perform God pleasing actions, but this does not restrict his "free-will". The man who is glorified in the presence of Christ has no ability to sin against God, but this does not restrict his "free-will". (Let me just mention that this is exactly the same type of "free-will" that God posesses.)

The problem is that we are not God, but creatures. Free will is an issue in our we relate to a perfect, loving God, do we respond or reject. In eternity, the choice we have made will put us in a permenent love relationship. It is like marriage. You have a choice to make and after that your choice is over. Now, the relationship choices must be made, which for us in time is a daily walk. In eternity, those choices we made in time will translate into the relationship we will have with Him in eternity. Those who made 'good' choices will have a far closer relationship with Him then those who were saved but neglected the day to day walk.

The only ones who can both sin and perform God pleasing actions simultaneously are those regenerated believers who are not yet glorified. We are the ones who know that "in our flesh dwells no good thing". We are the ones faced with the difficulty described in Romans Seven.

Hey, Woody says that Rom.7 doesn't apply to believers but to unbelievers! You better check with him on that! You actually believe in the two natures! WELL Amen! Any (non-Calvinist) takers?

Calvinism will dry up a Church real quick! Many Presbyterian congregations in England, during the 18th century became Unitarian. In this country, in 1924, 1300 Presbyterian ministers singed the Auburn Affirmation, a document which basically repudiated the fundamentals of the faith. The apostasy of the great Calvinistic stronghold in Princeton Seminary is well known. (The Other Side of Calvinism, p.139) Do you not understand that you confirm the truth of the reformed doctrine with that quote ? (just as another quote from Vance supported our position)

No, the issue was what being taught, which was Calvinism. Those men who became Unitarians did so because they rejected the Scriptures.

Matthew 22 14"For many are called, but few are chosen." Matthew 13:11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'[1] 16But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17For I tell you the truth, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it. The call was never Universal FTD

The call is Universal!

Who will have all men be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth,For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, espically of those who believe.(1Tim.2:4,4:10)

Now, lets cut to the chase. You state that you believe no one would willingly reject God. Yet, you refuse to tell me how Lucifer and Adam did so. Unless you have an answer to those two historical examples of perfect creatures who rejected God from their own will, your protestations are empty sounds.

If one has eternal life! The Calvinists make ones life prove that you are saved. James 2:18-19 "But someone will say, 'You have faith; I have deeds.' Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do." James says that his works are proof of his faith. His eternal life is not EARNED by his works; his works are proof of his eternal life. We know that there will be false confessions because Christ says, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." (Matt. 7:21)

So? That is not the point! My view of eternal security is that once one is saved he is union with Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit. He cannot be lost. Now, if a believer knows this, he will know that it is not a matter of preservation but relationship what keeps him saved.

A Calvinist can never be sure he is a part of the elect unless he does bear fruit! Thus, you have Arminians working to stay saved and Calvinists working to prove they are saved, while those who believe in eternal security work because they are saved.

...by confounding God preservation of the believer with the believer's perseverance in the faith, Calvinists have contradicted their entire system of theology. (The Other Side of Calvinism, Vance,p.559,566) Vance is a wolf in sheep's clothing. The perseverance is all of grace. It is a RESULT OF not a REQUIREMENT FOR salvation. It is what Paul is talking about in Phillipians 1:6. "that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."

That is true, but the Calvinist must wait to know that he has been really chosen! There is always a chance (in the mind of the Calvinist)that his salvation is not real and he could return to the world, as did Demas.

As for Lance, his work is the definitive work on Calvinism, since he uses your own theologians to explain your system.

The thing about "free will" is that it is defined as man's ability to choose between two options. But it ignores any prejudices or fears held by man in question.

No man's will is completely "free" in any aspect of life. Let's leave aside the sotierlogical application for a minute. Our choices are influenced by a whole multitude of factors -- emotions, society, and so on.

The free will position gives man the say in whether or not he's saved. The position is attractive, to be sure, while Calvinism seems cold and heartless to the non-Calvinist. But the shortcoming of the Calvinistic position is that it assumes that man could make the choice for salvation.

But I Cor. 1: 18 explains that those which are perishing consider the gospel to be foolishness. The passage later explains that this is such "that no flesh might glory in his presence" (1:29), that is because in the flesh there is nothing good, nothing worthy of glory.

When we get to I Cor. 2:10, the Apostle Paul explains how, while the blessings God has awaiting his believers are so great that no human mind could conceive of them, but that "God hath revealed them to us by His Spirit." And continuing:

for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

What we have here is that the natural man, that is, man not regenerated by the Holy Spirit cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God -- because they are spiritual, and are foolishness to him.

Sure, man is free to make any choice he wants. It's just that the natural man will never want to choose Christ.

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