Lord of the Rings Discussion Group (The Green Dragon Inn)

[HairOfTheDog]

Welcome to The Green Dragon Inn

Approaching The Green Dragon Inn
Hobbiton, in The Shire

The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And wither then? I cannot say.
- JRR Tolkien

Politics also goes ever on and on.
This is a place for FReeper Tolkien fans to come and take a break from the impure reality of conservative activism and relax a little with a great story. We (the other co-conspirators and I) would like to study together the writings of Tolkien, beginning together, and discussing as we go through The Lord of the Rings together.

This is a chapter discussion, roughly one chapter per week, with the discussion mostly centered on the books, though of course the movie will be contrasted and compared, and perhaps used to illustrate another interpretation of the story.

When we are ready to move on, someone from the group (maybe me) will ping The Green Dragon List to the new Chapter, but we will continue this one thread until it becomes too cumbersome…. Let me know if you would like to be on - or off - this list. I will for now serve as the Thain of the list.

If you are joining late, jump right in, but please stick to the chapter currently being discussed.

Some have loved this story a long time, and some are newly discovering it. If you fit either category, we invite you to join in, but we would like this thread to stay mostly focused on the chapter at hand and keep moving, but at a pace everyone can keep up with… No jumping ahead, and no lagging behind! If you have other news to report or wish to discuss something Tolkien in more general terms… May we recommend the equally homey Hobbit Hole where my co-conspirators and I frequently have plenty of good talk.

One other request…. This thread will get long. In recognition that images slow down the thread for many and take up bandwidth, let’s keep the posting of images to a minimum on this thread. If there is a great illustration you wish to share, let’s try to use links instead of images wherever possible.

So lets read, listen and become inspired by the many aspects of The Lord of the Rings that touch us deeply and reconnect us to the values we aspire to. Many great discussions have already been had, and I hope that this thread will produce even more. Many FReepers have wonderful things to say about LoTR, whether the fantasy reconnects them with their faith, with their relationships with friends and family, or simply illustrates the splendor of great acts of heroism and sacrifice in the constant battle of virtue versus corruption.

Though it is a work of fiction, we believe the inspiration to be gained can only help us in our larger political goals: to guard and defend our freedom, our culture and our political ideals. May the fellowship and insight gained from this discussion help us to work through the issues that are the basis for our many shared ideals.

Besides, we Tolkien fans* need something to keep us busy during the next two years of waiting for the next two films. If you do not enjoy this story, then please simply leave us be.

*Also known as Geeky Hobbity Weirdos, obsessive fanatics, you name it, we have heard it and we see these names as compliments. In other words: don’t act like a troll, or we will distract you with our endless babble until the morning sun turns you to stone.

[Ladysmith]

Wow, this is great!

Please ping me!

[JenB]

Hey, I'm not doing much... I have a wealth of useless Tolkien knowledge that can finally be shown off!

[Overtaxed]

Well, gentle hobbits, this working hobbit has to retire soon. It was a fun weekend!

I hope we're going to stay on Chapter 2 for a little bit because I'm still thinking about this chapter...mostly about the ring as a character, and divine providence in Gandalf's story.

There's just one thing I'd like to know (maybe JenB can help me out on this.) If LOTR takes place in a time before a "formal religion" exists, why does Sam keep saying "Lor bless you" and "Lor bless me"?

[Monkey Face]

(Ummm...because Tolkien forgot for just a moment where he was and what he was writing about?...Thought he was back in Jolly Old England?...)

[Romestamo]

Everything looks correct, but there's one thing you left out that should be explained. The first time that Sauron tried to raise an army, the men of Westernesse were still mostly good, and they raised a gigantic army that dwarfed Sauron's and brought it to Middle Earth. Sauron abased himself, and with his silver toungue work his way into a position of influence in Numenor. So while the Numenorians were becoming greedy and speaking against the ban keeping mortals out of Aman, they were also participating in Morgoth worship guided by Sauron.

[ecurbh]

If LOTR takes place in a time before a "formal religion" exists, why does Sam keep saying "Lor bless you" and "Lor bless me"?

Probably for the same reason that the dragon firework at Bilbo's party is described as passing over "like an express train"! Oops.

[Romestamo]

I remember reading that the nine were various Northern Chieftans, but I don't think any of them are named (We know a few of their names after becoming Nazgûl, but I hardly think that a self respecting Arnorien man would call himself "Gothmog".).

[gore3000]

"I thought that at this point, Gandalf expected to be with Frodo and would help him give up the ring the same way he helped Bilbo. '

I am not sure about that. Frodo was chosen because he was a Hobbit. While they are small people, they are very happy people, with lots of good memories. They are also, wholesome people, not devious, not nasty, not desirous of power - the qualities which Sauron and Saruman use to deceive and ensnare people to their will. Like the saying goes - you cannot cheat an honest man and Frodo and Hobbits in general were honest people.

[Overtaxed]

Yeah, you're probably right. (Have I been thinking too much on this stuff or was it all the pints?)

[Overtaxed]

I agree about why hobbits were chosen, although the choosing was done before Gandalf even knew Bilbo had the ring (unless he suggested that Bilbo choose Frodo as his heir.)

I was refering to the part when Frodo is scared about having the ring in the first place and Gandalf promises to help him bear the burden until it is no longer his to bear.

[HairOfTheDog]

seven stars and seven stones and one white tree

What are the seven stars? are these the Silmarils? What are they? I know of the seven stones, I believe these are the Palantir, and the white tree, which was planted but has withered (we learn later) in Gondor.

[JenB]

Well, the seven stars are not the Silmarils - there were only three of them and by this time, only the one that Earendil wears is still around. I'm not entirely sure what the seven stars are. Possibly some jewels - after all, Isildur does wear a jewel on his forehead. The seven stones, yes, are the palantiri, and the white tree is the one that got planted at Minas Tirith.

[ecurbh]

Hey Rosie, here is an interesting read on Sam:

On Valentine's Day, better a hobbit's heart than to lust after a lord

[RosieCotton]

Aww...cute article! Thanks for calling my attention to it!

Does make me wish my OWN Sam would hurry up a bit..

[NewCenturions]

"a wealth of useless Tolkien knowledge"

Not at all - it's quite a noble hobby! I have learned much.

[Mercat]

No way is Aragon 70. He doesn't look at day over 35.

[JenB]

Well, thank you! Now if only I could use it to become rich, powerful, or famous - I might persuade my mother that I had not wasted all those hours I spent rereading LotR instead of diagramming sentences or such. (I had a good sense of priorities; math was important, and so was learning how to write, but geography and 'soft' subjects could be put off for a good reason. Like Tolkien.)

[Overtaxed]

They are also, wholesome people, not devious, not nasty, not desirous of power

I'm glad you said that! I've been thinking about it all day (things are kind of slow here at work.) Gandalf says that Bilbo escaped the ring's evil because he began his ownership with pity for Gollum. Frodo resists the corruption because he didn't covet the ring in the first place. Of course being a hobbit helped because, as you said, the are wholesome people...not desirous of power.

Then I thought about Smeagol who was a "curious-minded" hobbit-like creature. According to Gandalf, the reason Smeagol turned into Gollum is that he started his ownership by murdering to get it. So being "hobbit-like" didn't save him (especially since he used the ring to be nasty in general.) It did, however, leave him with at least a hope of being cured.

[Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy]

There's just one thing I'd like to know (maybe JenB can help me out on this.) If LOTR takes place in a time before a "formal religion" exists, why does Sam keep saying "Lor bless you" and "Lor bless me"?

Remember, Tolkien was writing as though he was merely the "translator" into English of the material contained in the Red Book of Westmarch. As such he uses occasional English dialects or sayings which are meant to remind us of something equivalent but untranslateable from the "original material". For instance, the trolls in the Hobbit didn't really talk like a bunch of Cockney hoodlums; Tolkien simply used that kind of language to suggest to the reader what kinds of creatures these trolls were - nasty, quarrelsome, not too bright, etc.

[ecurbh]

By the way, I took a mental health day off from w*rk and went for viewing number 7 (gotta pack them in before it leaves the theaters).