Lord of the Rings Discussion Group (The Green Dragon Inn)

Politics also goes ever on and on.
This is a place for FReeper Tolkien fans to come and take a break from the impure reality of conservative activism and relax a little with a great story. We (the other co-conspirators and I) would like to study together the writings of Tolkien, beginning together, and discussing as we go through The Lord of the Rings together.

This is a chapter discussion, roughly one chapter per week, with the discussion mostly centered on the books, though of course the movie will be contrasted and compared, and perhaps used to illustrate another interpretation of the story.

When we are ready to move on, someone from the group (maybe me) will ping The Green Dragon List to the new Chapter, but we will continue this one thread until it becomes too cumbersome…. Let me know if you would like to be on - or off - this list. I will for now serve as the Thain of the list.

If you are joining late, jump right in, but please stick to the chapter currently being discussed.

Some have loved this story a long time, and some are newly discovering it. If you fit either category, we invite you to join in, but we would like this thread to stay mostly focused on the chapter at hand and keep moving, but at a pace everyone can keep up with… No jumping ahead, and no lagging behind! If you have other news to report or wish to discuss something Tolkien in more general terms… May we recommend the equally homey Hobbit Hole where my co-conspirators and I frequently have plenty of good talk.

One other request…. This thread will get long. In recognition that images slow down the thread for many and take up bandwidth, let’s keep the posting of images to a minimum on this thread. If there is a great illustration you wish to share, let’s try to use links instead of images wherever possible.

So lets read, listen and become inspired by the many aspects of The Lord of the Rings that touch us deeply and reconnect us to the values we aspire to. Many great discussions have already been had, and I hope that this thread will produce even more. Many FReepers have wonderful things to say about LoTR, whether the fantasy reconnects them with their faith, with their relationships with friends and family, or simply illustrates the splendor of great acts of heroism and sacrifice in the constant battle of virtue versus corruption.

Though it is a work of fiction, we believe the inspiration to be gained can only help us in our larger political goals: to guard and defend our freedom, our culture and our political ideals. May the fellowship and insight gained from this discussion help us to work through the issues that are the basis for our many shared ideals.

Besides, we Tolkien fans* need something to keep us busy during the next two years of waiting for the next two films. If you do not enjoy this story, then please simply leave us be.

*Also known as Geeky Hobbity Weirdos, obsessive fanatics, you name it, we have heard it and we see these names as compliments. In other words: don’t act like a troll, or we will distract you with our endless babble until the morning sun turns you to stone.

Good morning! :)

OK, I read all the posts and see we are on Chapter 2 already. I'll have to crack it open and skim it once more to be able to add anything. I'll mostly just read along here. My husband is reading it with me, while he is Florida and we are in Texas. He told me to read Chapter 2 very careful because the whole plot is laid out.

I feel like a dummy around all the loyal Tolkien fans here. You guys are so smart and funny.

I love literature and I'm an avid reader. I've never read Tolkien before. I'm a big C.S. Lewis fan. I knew Tolkien and Lewis were good friends, so I've been meaning to read these books forever. Wanting to read the book before I saw the movie prompted me to buy a copy. My only problem is life is very stressful right now. (We are in the middle of a move) I'm only able to read a few pages a night before I crash from a hard day of packing. I'll try to hurry and keep up with you guys.

I haven't seen the movie yet and refuse to do so before I'm finished reading. I wanted to thank everyone for notifying me of the “spoilers” in your posts. I don’t want to know more than I should yet. LOL

One thing I keep getting stuck on is my C.S. Lewis track mind. I know his books are filled with Christian symbolism, and my mind keeps trying to find the same thing in The Lord of the Rings. I’m trying really hard to remind myself not to over analyze this wonderful book, and just enjoy the fantasy.

You have good self-control to really wait to see the film until you have read through... I hope you don't miss it in the theaters!

I am not sure you will always be protected from spoilers, but we will try. I am not always good at remembering that everyone has not read these books many times. The Shadow of the Past is indeed an important chapter... Try not to get overwhelmed by all the background that has been provided from the Silmarrillion. The Silmarillion is a history - a recounting of events that happened at the end of the second age when Sauron was first overthrown. All prior to our story, so technically not a "spoiler". Realistically, you don't need to know the deep history to get the point in the chapter. It is one of the many "layers" that allows for people to dig deeper and get more when they are ready. It provides some explanation to some of the mysterious things that Gandalf alludes to without explaining. It explains the significance of some of the elvish poetry and lore that you will come across as you read.

I don't look for Christian allegory in the story, and so don't particularly see it. Many do. What I see though, are divine truths... right and wrong, virtue and corruption, good and evil. Temptation. The characters are challenged by temptation... and they are "real" enough that they occasionally fail along the way. Others will likely point out closer allegory, though Tolkien often denied loudly any intent to draw direct lines. This is not Lewis, you are right.

Well, looks like you guys have been having fun! I've spent my time away thinking about what exactly I should talk about, and figuring out what should be discussed in more depth later, so here goes.

At the end of the First Age in Middle-Earth, the host of the Valar (demigods, basically) overthrew Morgoth, who was a very powerful evil spirit. Morgoth had been ruling Middle-Earth and warring with the Elves and some Men for a very long time. Morgoth basically equals Satan.

Anyway, Morgoth was defeated, and as a reward, the Men who had fought with the Elves were given an island out between Middle-Earth and the Blessed Realms. The island was called Numenor, and sometimes Westernesse, which is how it is referred to in the chapter we are disussing. The men of Numenor were taught many things by the Elves.

Now, Morgoth's chief servant was Sauron. When Morgoth was defeated, he surrendered, but later he fled and hid himself. Slowly he began to gather power to himself, but nobody knew about it. Then he came to the Elves of Eregion (also called Hollin) and the Rings of Power were made. He had a hand in making most of them, but not the Elven-Rings. Celebrimbor the Elf-Smith did not trust Sauron. (This probably goes way back to the problems Feanor had with Morgoth over the Silmarils; Celebrimbor was Feanor's grandson. I can give you more details on this if you need it.) Anyway, the Elf-rings were hidden from Sauron, and so the One Ring, which Sauron soon forged, had less power over them.

Sauron, as we all know, forged the Ring in Orodruin - Mt. Doom. Part of the reason he settled in Mordor was because of Mt Doom, but he also increased its powers. It's not your average volcano.

While all this is going on in Middle-Earth, over in Numenor the kings are becoming more proud and forgetting their roots. Although the kings are descended from Elros Half-Elven, brother of Elrond and the child of Earendil and Elwing, the laws of Numenor are becoming increasingly hard on elf-friends. Then Ar-Pharazon the Golden comes to the throne. He is the proudest king of all, and he takes his army to Middle-Earth and forces Sauron to swear fealty. Sauron is taken back to Numenor as a captive - but he has the Ring. Ar-Pharazon falls under Sauron's power, and the Numenoreans turn to darkness.

Finally, the Valar destroy Numenor because Ar-Pharazon tries to make war on Aman. Numenor is swallowed by the sea. However, one family, descendants of Elros and still loyal to the Elves, escapes. Elendil and his sons Isildur and Anarion flee, with nine ships full of people and treasures- seven stars and seven stones and one white tree.

Elendil founds the North-Kingdom of Arnor, and his sons rule together in Gondor. They build the great city of Osgiliath, the watch-city of Minas Isil, and the white city, Minas Anor.

Then comes the Last Alliance. Sauron had escaped the destruction of Numenor, though he was weakened, and now seeing his evil, Men and Elves banded together. The great Elf-King, Gil-Galad, lead his people, and Elendil led the armies of Men, and they fought. Elendil and Gil-Galad defeated Sauron, but they perished doing so. Then Isildur took the Ring from Sauron's hand, as wergild for his dead father and brother.

One thing that you may not realize from the movie is how few people knew that Isildur took the Ring. Although it's not made clear until the Council of Elrod, I think I can talk about it here. In the last duel between Sauron and Elendil and Gil-Galad, there weren't many spectators; just Isildur, Elrond, and Cirdan. (Incidentally Gil-Galad originally had one of the Rings; when he died, it went to Elrond.) So only those three knew the truth of what had happened; and Isildur died two years later, ambushed by Orcs. He did write the famous parchment in Minas Tirith but apparently nobody knew about it.

Is there anything else anyone would like to know about this period?

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