Posted on 02/13/2002 5:30:35 PM PST by CCWoody
The Goal of God in Redemptive History
A brief and selected overview
Psalm 115:1-3 Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto Thy name give glory, for Thy mercy and for Thy truth's sake. Why should the heathen say, "Where now is their God?" But our God is in the heavens; He hath done whatsoever He hath pleased.
God's ultimate purpose for all that He does is to preserve and display His glory. It is uppermost in His affections and he prizes and delights in His glory above all things. Anybody who can grasp and understand how precious this is to God will have unlocked the door to the fullness of joy and pleasures forever more (Psalm 16:11) for they will have understood exactly what this means:
The Chief end of man is to Glorify God
BY
Enjoying Him forever!
The term "glory of God" generally refers to the visible splendor or moral beauty of God. With the Psalmist, I too have a strong desire to behold the beauty of the LORD (Psalm 27:4), to simply feel awe and wonder in all that He is. It is for this purpose that God has created man; for His Glory (Revelation 4:11).
Genesis 1:26-27 And God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them.
Man, who is created last of all God's work is the only creature to be in His image. He is given dominion and commanded to subdue and fill the earth (1:28). Numbers 14:21 expresses God's purpose in all of this when the Lord says: all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD. Man has been given the exhalted status to bear the image of the Creator so that he will reflect the glory of his Maker.
Therefore, it should come as no surprise that when they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man (Romans 1:23) that God has a perfect right to be furious.
The vast majority of professing Christians simply do not understand the full nature of verses like Romans 1:18: For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness. Yet, the Psalmist David captures the essence of exactly why God is furious at man. Not only have we filled the earth with the corruptible image of man instead of the incorruptible image of God, but we have directly profaned God with our sin:
Psalm 51:3-4 For I acknowledge my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me. Against Thee, Thee only, have I sinned and done this evil in Thy sight, that Thou mightest be justified when Thou speakest, and be clear when Thou judgest.
Behold the words of the Lord in Psalm 78:30-31 after Israel spoke against God (v. 19) saying "Can God prepare a table in the wilderness?":
But they were not estranged from their lust; but while their meat was yet in their mouths, the wrath of God came upon them and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen men of Israel.
They simply do not understand that this is the Lord:
Isaiah 63:3 I have trodden the winepress alone, And from the peoples no one was with Me. For I have trodden them in My anger, And trampled them in My fury; Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments, And I have stained all My robes.
The vast majority of professing Christians simply cannot understand that this is simply not some isolated event in scripture. God is holy and we are not. We constantly profane His name and tempt Him. And it is precisely this lack of understanding which has given them over to the error that God has purposed a desire to save everyone. He has not. The evidence is clear enough for those willing to read and understand the scriptures.
Egypt
God saves, not for our sake, but for the sake of His holy name; for His glory. We are the beneficiary of His mercy, not the primary purpose. When one understands this, one understands his proper place. Man is not the center of salvation. The display of God's glory is:
Romans 9:17 For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, "Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth."
Ezekel 20:8-9 But they rebelled against Me and would not hearken unto Me. They did not every man cast away the abominations of their eyes, neither did they forsake the idols of Egypt. "`Then I said, "I will pour out My fury upon them, to accomplish My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt." But I wrought for My name's sake, that it should not be polluted before the heathen among whom they were, in whose sight I made Myself known unto them in bringing them forth out of the land of Egypt.
Exodus 14:4,18 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD." So the Israelites did this…. The Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I gain glory through Pharaoh, his chariots and his horsemen."
It is there in black and white for all to see. God acts for His glory and for His name's sake. The prototype of salvation in the Passover Lamb is for His glory. Scripture specifically affirms that together with salvation for His chosen people, God destroyed the firstborn of all Egypt. Salvation and damnation; both for the glory of God. Isaiah 43:3 says the following: For I am the LORD your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I gave Egypt for your ransom, Ethiopia and Seba in your place.
Cross Work
Yet, the God of the New Testament is the same God of the Old Testament (Malachi 3:6): For I am the Lord, I do not change. And again (Hebrews 13:8) Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Hebrews 1:1-4 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
When the Father looks on the Son, He beholds the brightness of His own glory and the express image of His own person. When God contemplates His own glory in the image of the Son it brings Him great delight (Isaiah 42:1): Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! The very method with which God has chosen to effect salvation is designed to reveal His own Glory in the Person of the Son.
John 17:4-5 I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
John 12:28-28 "Now is My soul troubled, and what shall I say? `Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this cause came I unto this hour. Father, glorify Thy name." Then there came a voice from Heaven, saying, "I HAVE BOTH GLORIFIED IT, AND WILL GLORIFY IT AGAIN."
The purpose of Jesus' death was to glorify the Father. To be willing as the Son of God to suffer the loss of so much glory himself in order to repair the injury done to God's glory by our sin showed how infinitely valuable the glory of God is. To be sure, the death of Christ also shows God's love for us. But we are not at the center.
God put forward his Son on the cross "to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins" (Romans 3:25). In other words, by forgiving sin in the Old Testament and by tolerating many sinners, God had given the impression that his honor and glory were not of infinite worth. Now to vindicate the honor of His name and the worth of His glory, He required the death of His own Son. Thus Christ suffered and died for the glory of the Father. This demonstrates the righteousness of God, because God's righteousness is His unswerving allegiance to uphold the value of His glory. - John Piper from Desiring God (pg. 264-5)
Christ does not exist to make much about man; to crawl up to him and beg that he should accept Him as Savior lest He invade the citadel of man's free will. Quite the contrary, we exist to make much of and enjoy Him. It is demanded of us. And He has made it so easy. If we would only cast our burdens on Him we would be sustained by Him (Psalm 55:22). If we would only call upon Him we would be delivered and we would Glorify Him (Psalm 50:15). He takes great delight in the display of His grace upon those who delight in Him:
Isaiah 46:1-5 Bel boweth down, Nebo stoopeth; their idols were upon the beasts and upon the cattle. Your carriages were heavy laden; they are a burden to the weary beast. They stoop, they bow down together; they could not deliver the burden, but themselves are gone into captivity.
"Hearken unto Me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, who are borne by Me from the belly, who are carried from the womb: And even to your old age I am He, and even to hoary hairs will I carry you. I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.
"To whom will ye liken Me and make Me equal, and compare Me, that we may be like?
Mark 10:45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
Luke 22:27 For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves.
Our Great God is not like pagan idols. They are a burden. Our God will bear us up and carry us if our delight is in Him. For how can we worship him with our hands. It is our God who gives life and breath and all things. (Acts 17:25) For those of us who eagerly wait for Him, he prepares a table for us in the presence of our enemies (Psalm 23:5). We delight ourselves in Him; He gets Glory.
The Coming Day of our Lord
For now, we walk by faith and not by sight (2 Cor 5:7), but the day is coming when our faith will be swallowed up because we shall see him come in all His glory. For now we see Christ in our hearts (Ephesians 1:18) and it is there that we have the knowledge of the glory of God (2Cor 4:6) but our blessed hope is in the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ (Titus 2:13). Like the lightning, so will be the Son of Man in His day (Luke 17:24). He shall come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him (Matthew 25:31). Not just some, but ALL of His angels and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands (Revelation 5:11). Heaven will empty in the Glorious day of the Lord.
His coming is the revelation of His glory (1 Peter 4:13) and every saint will be a partaker of the glory to be revealed (1 Peter 5:1). The joy of the saints will be in the revealed Glory of Christ (1 Peter 4:13). He shall come on that Day to be glorified in His saints and to be admired in all those who believe (1 Thess 1:10). The Glory of the Lord will be salvation (Hebrews 9:28). He shall change our vile bodies into the likeness of the body of His glory (Philippians 3:21). In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, we will be changed (1 Cor 15:52).
And it will also be the fire of judgement (2 Thess 1:7). Every unbeliever will pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the Lord and His glory (2 Thess 1:9). The kings of the earth and the slaves will hide themselves in caves and cry out to the rocks "fall on us and hide us from the wrath of the Lamb" (Revelation 6:15-16).
But to those of us who eagerly away for His return:
Luke 12:37 Blessed are those servants whom the lord, when he cometh, shall find watching. Verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
He will not give up the glory of being the grace giver. Our God works for those who wait for Him (Isaiah 30:18, 64:4).
Come magnify the LORD with me,
And let us exalt His name together.
Let us bow down before Him in awe and wonder
to the glory of His name.
No it it does not! What it has to show is that man is capable of seeking God. It is you who constantly make a reference to the 'corpse' analogy. The passage states not only groping but groping for God.That they should seek the lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us (Acts.17:27)
Now, your positions states that no man is seeking God-period!
I am at face value accepting that you are attempting to refute Total Depravity. I have obviously overestimated your understand and ability in the past. This is not a lie on my part; it is the error of being overly gracious to you.
Woody, you are about as 'gracious' as rattlesnake!
Since you are not saying that this verse teaches that all men have a desire to seek God, then it is you who are lying about our position. You have been told several times on this thread that you need to stop and define our position to show us that you are even qualified to be in a discussion with us. You refuse, instead choosing to lie about our position.
Why should I define your position, when you refuse do so? Your position is very clear, that man cannot seek God nor wishes to do so. Now, that passages states that God has made it possible for him to do so, so man is capable of that action.
How long will this go while you realize that you cannot even define our position on Total Depravity?
(the below are from the Other Side of Calvinism, by Lawrence Vance,)
So, when consulting the Westminster Confession to back up the first point of Calvinism, the proper place to look is not the aformentioned Chapter 6, but rather chapter 10, 'of free will' which says in part:III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto. IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin; and by his grace alone, enable him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of this remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, or only will that which is good but doth also will that which is evil.(p.188)
Therefore the heart of the matter is whether a man has the free will to respond to the word of God and the Holy Spirit without being the subject of Unconditional Election and Irresistible Grace.(p.200)All that is meant that man has a free will in the matter of salvation is that he has the ability to respond to the word of God and the conviction of the Holy Spirit. The fact that most men choose to reject Christ and remain in their sin shows the extent of man's depravity, but does not change the fact that man has free will to do otherwise. A man is only free if he is able to have chosen to do otherwise (p.216)
There are two alternatives: the Bible and TULIP Calvinism And brought them out, and said Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, and thy house (Acts.16:30-31)(p.200)
I understand your rotten system all too well despite the change in terminology and the twisting of the meaning of words that would even make a Jesuit blush!
BTW, hang-ups with Calvinism are pretty dangerous. Arminianism (semi-Pelagianism) really is the Lie of Eden.
P.S. One of these days, I'd like to show you an interesting exposition of 1 Timothy 4:10. It offers a very interesting perspective concerning the universal offer of the gospel AND "limited" atonement therein.
I am doing well, Thank you.
I see things have not changed much :>=)
I keep asking why one wanted to choose for Christ (like the jailer) and some (like Herod )did not want to choose Christ.
Both "heard" the same call but they made different "choices"
We keep trying to point out that depraved man will not choose because of his nature..you keep saying that his nature doesn't matter and keep focusing on the fact that some choose
That my friend is an obvious truth and completely irrevelent :>)
I'd appreciate that. Also, if you have any hints regarding II Pet 2:1, that'd be cool too. (The false teachers bringing in "damnable heresies" deny "the Lord that bought them.") It seems to fly in the face of the limited application of the atonement.
(No, I didn't think you would. By your own words you condemn yourself.)
Considering the state of his soul, I doubt that he even understands why his position is Pelagian. After all, he does say that he doesn't deny Original Sin. This is reminds me of what he says about God's Omniscience as well.
What is giving you difficulty about it?
But there are many, many problem verses for the doctrine of eternal security, too. And it's still true.
I'll post some more on this when I get a chance.
Would God really give the impression that his honor and glory were not of infinite worth?
Perhaps I'm just nit-picking but is it not true that the OT saints were not justified until Christ arose and he brought them out of the bosom of Abraham into heaven? Thus, the arguement that God had to send his Son to die because the unredeemed OT saints had been forgiven seems dichotomous.
It is not 'irrevelent' if God states that man is responsible for that choice and can choose otherwise! Rom.1:20-21,Ezk,33:11,. If man cannot choose then God is just 'kidding us' with His exhortations to do so! Why did the Lord weep over Jerusalam when He knew (according to Calvinism) they were predestinated for their fate? Why did He say 'but ye would not'
You never answer the questions about Adam and Lucifer, what made them sin? Calvinism is a very easy faith, just stop thinking!
I might just have to chew on this one for a while. BTW, have you read Piper's book where I got the quote?
Ummm!, locke, did you bother to check the Bible cite in the Piper quote:
God put forward his Son on the cross "to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins" (Romans 3:25). In other words, by forgiving sin in the Old Testament and by tolerating many sinners, God had given the impression that his honor and glory were not of infinite worth. Now to vindicate the honor of His name and the worth of His glory, He required the death of His own Son. Thus Christ suffered and died for the glory of the Father. This demonstrates the righteousness of God, because God's righteousness is His unswerving allegiance to uphold the value of His glory. - John Piper from Desiring God (pg. 264-5)Romans 3 was my NT meditations tonight and as I was reading, it occured to me that this was the answer to your dilemia with the Piper quote. Unless, I am still not understanding what you are asking. If I'm still not with you, then maybe Jerry will see it from a different light.Romans 3:21-26 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
BTW, FWIW, my understanding is that the Bosom of Abraham is Paradise.
If someone starts a new thread, please be sure to give it a title that allows it to stand out. Thanks.
BTW, have you read Piper's book where I got the quote?
I haven't read the book. I have seen some of his material posted here on FR and I liked it.
Ummm!, locke, did you bother to check the Bible cite in the Piper quote:
Yes I did. I guess what is not clear in my mind is if "passed over" means forgiveness or a reprieve. Looked at in context of the original Passover, was that an act of forgiveness or reprieve?
The phrase "God left the impression his glory was not of infinite worth" connoted to me that God had made a mistake by forgiving the sins of the unredeemed and was fixing the problem. I'm sure thats not what Piper meant and having not read his book in context that may be the problem, or just my ignorance.
Me too J M
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