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Help! Need some facts to counter liberal

Posted on 02/03/2002 9:58:39 AM PST by cjsdoc

Was engaged in a discussion with a big time Lib last night. Her attacks on our Constitution (tainted, it was asserted, for it was drafted by a bunch of greedy white male slave owners who oppressed women), and the role we've played in international affairs (the U.S., I was informed, was the biggest exporter of violence, since we manufacture and distribute "all" of the weapons on the planet) were quite viscious. Nonsense, of course, but I am hoping that someone here could save me a few hours of research and provide some facts and/or some good leads for info. Could someone help with the following questions? 1. With regard to the state of the world when our Constitution was drafted, I suspect our Founding Fathers were remarkable visionaries. It would be interesting to know how other nations were treating subjects such as slavery, the right of women to vote (or the right of common people to vote, for that matter), and the disposition of the drafters concerning these issues. I remember reading years ago that some signers were categorically opposed to slavery, but chose not to push the point as it would have divided the Country before it was even formed. Any factoids out there? 2. How does the U.S. rank, globally, in terms of arms production/exports? 3. How does the U.S. rank in terms of financial aid to developing countries? How much comes from our taxes? How much from humanitarian organizations? 4. It seems that the greatest atrocities in the field of genocide have been committed by Marxists and fascists who attacked citizens of their own countries, and that they have succeeded in these efforts without any help from the U.S. Could someone give me quick list of the killers and the numbers murdered? My apologies if this is not the proper forum for a post such as this; I am a complete newbie. If I am off-base, I would welcome any assistance in finding the correct forum. Thanks very much for any help!


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Miscellaneous
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1 posted on 02/03/2002 9:58:39 AM PST by cjsdoc
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To: cjsdoc
Forget it. You can't change a liberals mind with facts-- they just continue to argue with them.
2 posted on 02/03/2002 10:01:29 AM PST by let freedom sing
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To: let freedom sing
Was engaged in a discussion with a big time Lib last night. Her attacks on our Constitution (tainted, it was asserted, for it was drafted by a bunch of greedy white male slave owners who oppressed women), and the role we've played in international affairs (the U.S., I was informed, was the biggest exporter of violence, since we manufacture and distribute "all" of the weapons on the planet) were quite viscious. Nonsense, of course, but I am hoping that someone here could save me a few hours of research and provide some facts and/or some good leads for info. Could someone help with the following questions?

1. With regard to the state of the world when our Constitution was drafted, I suspect our Founding Fathers were remarkable visionaries. It would be interesting to know how other nations were treating subjects such as slavery, the right of women to vote (or the right of common people to vote, for that matter), and the disposition of the drafters concerning these issues. I remember reading years ago that some signers were categorically opposed to slavery, but chose not to push the point as it would have divided the Country before it was even formed. Any factoids out there?

2. How does the U.S. rank, globally, in terms of arms production/exports?

3. How does the U.S. rank in terms of financial aid to developing countries? How much comes from our taxes? How much from humanitarian organizations?

4. It seems that the greatest atrocities in the field of genocide have been committed by Marxists and fascists who attacked citizens of their own countries, and that they have succeeded in these efforts without any help from the U.S. Could someone give me quick list of the killers and the numbers murdered?

My apologies if this is not the proper forum for a post such as this; I am a complete newbie. If I am off-base, I would welcome any assistance in finding the correct forum. Thanks very much for any help!

3 posted on 02/03/2002 10:05:16 AM PST by ao98
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To: cjsdoc
1) Portugal, Spain, France and Britain were the largest slave traders at the time of the Revolution in that order. 2) America is, indeed, the pre-emminent exporter of arms; we have maintained this position for about 15 years. 3) America doesn't just give aid to other nations; we literally throw our money away. 4) Pol Pot of Cambodia wins the prize.
4 posted on 02/03/2002 10:15:32 AM PST by Buckeroo
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To: ao98
"Back to Basics for the Republican Party," a history of the GOP from the Republican point of view, is full of facts to use against the Democrats, such as that during Reconstruction the Ku Klux Klan was the terrorist wing of the Democratic Party. If ever arrested, the Klansmen's standrard cover story was that their get-together was actually a meeting of the local Young Democrats Club. The website for the book is www.republicanbasics.com
5 posted on 02/03/2002 10:15:33 AM PST by Grand Old Partisan
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To: ao98
It would be interesting to know how other nations were treating subjects such as slavery, the right of women to vote (or the right of common people to vote, for that matter), and the disposition of the drafters concerning these issues.

rhetorical questions? Libs won't answer them, either.

6 posted on 02/03/2002 10:21:09 AM PST by let freedom sing
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To: cjsdoc
I am a complete newbie.

First serious suggestion: paragraphs are our friends.

7 posted on 02/03/2002 10:22:35 AM PST by Publius6961
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To: cjsdoc
I hope she's holding on to her seat. Our laws against murder and rape were also authorized and written by white men with ideas and customs somewhat at variance with the enthusiasms of the contemporary liberal. Shall we throw those out, too?


8 posted on 02/03/2002 10:22:50 AM PST by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: cjsdoc
I sat a a table with a vice president of Kellogg Foundation and heard the same thing from him......... Two "global experts" trying to impress a gal from the the South and me were talking about a country in Africa that had just written their constitution. The exact comment was "They did it right and involved everyone. It wasn't just a bunch of white guys sitting around deciding what to do" I was too dumbfounded to even come up with a comment because I couldn't believe my ears. (I don't hear much of this in the midwest with the people I associate with) The black gal from the south and I both rolled our eyes a little at each other but didn't know what to say. In retrospect my personal thoughts are 'more power to the country in Africa and I am glad they wrote a good constitution for them but it doesn't discount the way we did it. I am as proud of our leaders as they should be of theirs.' If it happens again, that will be what I say. It has been two years since this encounter with liberals and I have been thinking about it ever since.
9 posted on 02/03/2002 10:22:52 AM PST by mutchdutch
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To: cjsdoc
Here's a good point about the "Slave Owners" who started this nation.

If you would look at the political splits that existed during the revolution, they were very close to the split on any big political issue: one-third for, one-third against, and one-third not knowing.

A substantial amount of the "third" who were "for" our independence from England were slave owners.

If the colonists had to base a revolution on 'slave-free' states, they would have lost the entire southern section of the states in their movement, and some populations in the north. This means the revolution would most likely not have happened, or would have happened with the British having a tremendous amount of favorable ports and persons within our borders. Not Good!

Consider the possibilites. England would have had incredible power in its colonization. Slavery would have most likely continued; possibly even until today.

If they doubt this, I use the example of South Africa. It was a virtual slave state until a few years ago. Could you imagine how much power it would have had if America was still a colony of Great Britian?

Have fun with with your liberal friend. I always ask them why they didn't think of things like this....

10 posted on 02/03/2002 10:23:42 AM PST by gortklattu
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To: cjsdoc
Hit her with Joe 6-pack's Questions for Liberals.

J6P

11 posted on 02/03/2002 10:25:14 AM PST by Joe 6-pack
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To: cjsdoc;let freedom sing
I tend to agree with let freedom sing. IMHO the best you can hope for is to put her on the defensive by forcing her to back up her assertions. For example, I'd be interested in which provisions of the Constitution serve greedy, white, male slaveholders to the exclusion of non-greedy, non-white, non-male non-slaveholders. if you are familiar with the Constitution and its amendments, you will find that this should keep her stumbling. With regard to the arms question, you might press her about who supplies arms to North Korea, Iran, and Iraq among others. Good luck.
12 posted on 02/03/2002 10:25:15 AM PST by Truthfairy
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To: cjsdoc
If you insist......we were the first to rid slavery and there are many misconceptions

But try not to argue with liberals.....they all get into this "group think" mode to fit their current thinking. I should say non-thinking.

I usually say to them that they have a perfect record. Absolutely nothing they have proposed has worked. It's because they haven't thought it through like the Founders did.

That usually quiets them down.

13 posted on 02/03/2002 10:26:27 AM PST by The Raven
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To: cjsdoc
Her attacks on our Constitution (tainted, it was asserted, for it was drafted by a bunch of greedy white male slave owners who oppressed women), and the role we've played in international affairs (the U.S., I was informed, was the biggest exporter of violence, since we manufacture and distribute "all" of the weapons on the planet) were quite viscious. Nonsense, of course, but I am hoping that someone here could save me a few hours of research and provide some facts and/or some good leads for info.

Pointing out the fact that saying such things in most other countries in the world today would ensure a long trip to the gulag or worse might be a good starting point.

14 posted on 02/03/2002 10:31:30 AM PST by He Rides A White Horse
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To: cjsdoc
You could always use the tactic the liberals use--just counter any argument she has with "You're a Racist!!" (even if the subject has nothing to do with race).

As to the number of people killed by their own marxist/communist governments, I believe the final toll for the 20th century is 50 million (give or take a few thousand). Look around on gun rights web sights--they usually like to give the figure since socialist nations like to confiscate guns before the killin' starts.

15 posted on 02/03/2002 10:33:34 AM PST by randog
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To: gortklattu
use the example of South Africa. It was a virtual slave state until a few years ago.

Yeah and now it's a marxist state that is quickly sliding down to 3rd world hellhole status. Great progress there.

16 posted on 02/03/2002 10:34:19 AM PST by joeyman
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To: let freedom sing
Regarding slavery, a quarter of a century after our Emancipation Proclamation slavery was alive and well in Brazil. Simultaneously, in Africa, Zubair Pasha was concentrating tens of thousands of Sudanese slaves in his Bahr al=Ghazal zaribas; from there they were shipped to the markets of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Iraq, and other sites in the Islamic World. Sudan itself was probably the locus of the greatest slave trade in history, and few slaves ever reached Europe or the Americas. Other slaver activity was occuring in Zanzibar and, with French connivance, in northern Madagascar and the Comoro Islands. <

2. Perhaps the most egregious case of genocide in recent times has been the death of two million Africans from the southern Sudan. Proportionately, in a country of 28 million the Arab Government in Khartoum has matched in savagery anything the Communists were up to in the Ukraine in the nineteen thirties when they allowed 8 million farmers (kulaks) to starve.

17 posted on 02/03/2002 10:35:35 AM PST by gaspar
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To: cjsdoc
You are talking of a lifetime of learning to know and appreciate the answers to those questions.
Instant gratification will not work on this subject; only a deep and broad knowledge of history can. The liberals either don't bother with history, or ignore the obvious consequences of it.

As for the short answers:
1. The best testament to the wisdom of the founding fathers is that the French used our constitution as a guide for their constitution, which followed shortly after ours.
The French motto: Liberty, Fraternity, Equality was suggested by Benjamin Franklin, who was then in France.

2. A silly question. The longevity of any nation in history is directly proportional to its ability and willingness to arm itself and use those arms both defensively and offensively.single country in history which came about and existed for any time at all unarmed.
Must be a lesson there.

3. From the UN to police actions in the last 50 years, to private charities, you will find that the US contributes the lions share of foreign aid in all forms, far out of proportion to our population.

4. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin just off the top of my head.
The statistics are not that hard to find; we are talking from tens of millions to a hundred million.
Look up Stalin & Ukraine.

18 posted on 02/03/2002 10:35:53 AM PST by Publius6961
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To: cjsdoc
As for #1, it doesn't really matter that the founders were rich white slave owners. That is an ad hominem attack. The question is does she agree with the principles in the Bill of Rights, or does she truly believe that the government should be allowed to do what it wants when it wants? Do people have inalienable rights, or are their rights bestowed on them by their government? She sounds like she would throw the baby out with the bathwater over very minor issues. Today there are no slaves and women are considered equal... isn't that enough for her, or does she want to destroy everything good simply because some things WERE bad in the past?

#2. How does the US rank in terms of arms? Who cares? The French built many nuclear plants for third world countries. They also built fighter planes, weapons. So did Russians, Chinese, and others. If we are #1, it is because we make the best, not because we are the most "mean". Like all markets, the market for weapons is competitive and only the best makers survive.

#3 Do you really have to ask this? Between direct aid to countries, our dues in the UN, our support of the IMF, we are by far the most generous nation on earth.

#4 Yes, the marxists have been the worst. The more control a central government has, the more their people suffer. Look at the USSR 30 million dead... Germany in WW2 caused 50 million to die.... Here is a breakdown taken from JPFO.org: 1915 - 1917 Ottoman Turkey, 1.5 million Armenians murdered; 1929 - 1953 Soviet Union, 20 million people that opposed Stalin were murdered; 1933 - 1945 Nazi occupied Europe, 13 million Jews Gypsies and others that opposed Hitler were murdered; 1948 - 1952 China, 20 million anti communists; 1960 - 1981 Guatemala, 100,000 Mayan Indians Murdered; 1971 - 1979 Uganda, 300,000 Christians and Political Rivals of Idi Amin murdered; 1975 - 1979 Cambodia, 1 million educated persons murdered.

Go see the www.jpfo.org site.

19 posted on 02/03/2002 10:37:36 AM PST by monkeyshine
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To: randog
That should be 'gun rights websites', not 'gun rights web sights'. Pardon my Freudian slip!
20 posted on 02/03/2002 10:38:10 AM PST by randog
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