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Was engaged in a discussion with a big time Lib last night. Her attacks on our Constitution (tainted, it was asserted, for it was drafted by a bunch of greedy white male slave owners who oppressed women), and the role we've played in international affairs (the U.S., I was informed, was the biggest exporter of violence, since we manufacture and distribute "all" of the weapons on the planet) were quite viscious. Nonsense, of course, but I am hoping that someone here could save me a few hours of research and provide some facts and/or some good leads for info. Could someone help with the following questions?

1. With regard to the state of the world when our Constitution was drafted, I suspect our Founding Fathers were remarkable visionaries. It would be interesting to know how other nations were treating subjects such as slavery, the right of women to vote (or the right of common people to vote, for that matter), and the disposition of the drafters concerning these issues. I remember reading years ago that some signers were categorically opposed to slavery, but chose not to push the point as it would have divided the Country before it was even formed. Any factoids out there?

2. How does the U.S. rank, globally, in terms of arms production/exports?

3. How does the U.S. rank in terms of financial aid to developing countries? How much comes from our taxes? How much from humanitarian organizations?

4. It seems that the greatest atrocities in the field of genocide have been committed by Marxists and fascists who attacked citizens of their own countries, and that they have succeeded in these efforts without any help from the U.S. Could someone give me quick list of the killers and the numbers murdered?

My apologies if this is not the proper forum for a post such as this; I am a complete newbie. If I am off-base, I would welcome any assistance in finding the correct forum. Thanks very much for any help!

I agree. Discussing with liberals is too difficult. They don't think, they feel. Facts aren't going to matter anyhow, if we're giving more humanitarian aid than anyone else it still won't change a liberal's mind. All they want is a perfect socialist world where no one has a dime more than anyone else. That is the gullible who believe what they're told. The real Socialists want the government to control everything because they expect to control the government.

I agree with many here that facts won't win over a liberal, bat maybe a personal account can. I'd like to relate a story told to me by a dear freind who is a naturalized citizen originally from China. During the cultural revolution in China, Mao attempted to reorganize the local farms into collectives. This led to massive logistical failers at harvest time which took over 5 years to get under control and resulted in massive starvation. While the general consensus is that 20 million people died, it's difficult to tell exaclty because so many went undocumented.

During this time my freinds parents were living in their villiage near the city of Chengdu in China's southwest, and were barely scraping by. Since their villiage was on the river, many people would pass by on the way to Chengdu. His mother met a couple one day who were obviously starving as many were at the time. They carried with them a small child who had died, but the parents staggered along carrying it seemingly oblivious to the fact. When my freinds mother went to the couple and said "I'm so sorry for your loss, but your child has died." The woman carrying the child broke down and said "oh you can never imagine my shame, .....we despise ourselves for even thinking what we have...... we know our child is dead but we could not bear to bury it because we're being driven mad with hunger and it no longer needs its flesh..." My freinds mother then stopped her and said "Please come with me, today you will eat at my home. We have almost nothing, but we will give you all we have, just please don't do this." They buried the child, and shared what they had, then the couple went on and they never saw them again.

China under Mao, a socialist paradise.