human being at seven weeks (abortion pro-life)

priestsforlife ^ | 2001 | Professor Andrzej Skawina,Dr. Antoni Marsinek, MD Zrodlo Foundation

[Exnihilo]

One of the greatest obstacles to protecting human lives is the bulk of Christian churches who refuse to stand up for the lives of the preborn

Do you have any supporting evidence for this claim, or is this your "impression" based on your limited experience?

[SpookBrat]

One of the greatest obstacles to protecting human lives is the bulk of Christian churches who refuse to stand up for the lives of the preborn. You'd do more good by asking them why they're spending their time on remodeling the sanctuary or putting in a basketball court than speaking up for human dignity.

OUCH! That one hurt!

I never thought in a million years I would agree with an atheist, but I do agree with you somewhat on your post. Or at least I can see where you would get the idea.

I belong to an extremely conservative church and you would have to search high and low to find ONE pro choicer. I'm not exaggerating either. I don't think I've ever even met one in my 33 years of being a member of this church. However, I have never known one of them to "work" at pro-life issues. About 7 years ago I finally met two of them who worked at a crisis pregnancy center. (One of them abopted my sister's baby BTW). Granted you will hear sermons or discussions on abortion once a week, but most of them don’t do anything about it.

I shouldn't be so hard on my church (or should I?). Up until I became really active in the pro-life movement, the only religious people I knew who "worked" the issue were Catholics (putting us to shame). Now I know many more individuals from different denominations who work hard on this issue.

I hate to say it, but you could sadly be right on this. I'll have to think about what you said some more, examine my life and vocally encourage others in my church to be more active, better than I have been in the past.

I hope you won't be bitter towards Christians because of this issue. We love the Lord and all his children deeply with all our heart and soul. I will admit we should all work harder. I do disagree with you though about heaven. Millions of dead children are in heaven waiting for their mama's and daddy's, and are nice and snug in God’s lap. Hopefully mothers and fathers of dead children will come to repentance. The idea of seeing their dead children again some day is what keeps many of them going, and contributes to their change of heart. As a Christian I can honestly say, the promise of heaven is all I live for (besides my sweet husband and my two precious humans).

I have a great deal of respect for you. Thanks for all you say and do.

(PS: You won't find a basketball court at our church and our houses of worship are built extremely plain and simple on purpose).

[miltonim]

Yes, the unborn human being and the born human being is one an the same. A seventh-grader can see that. Lindsey Lehmann wrote in a prize-winning essay:

I have a daily reminder of abortion's greatest lie. His name is Tommy, and he is my 3-year-old brother. When he looks at me with his big blue eyes, I know the color of those eyes was determined at the moment of fertilization.

When Tommy comes running to me from across the yard and jumps into my arms, I can feel his heart pounding against my chest. At three weeks, the heart of a fetus in the womb starts to beat. Tommy's beating heart at 3 years of age is the same beating heart as the one at 3 weeks of age in his mother's womb.

When my brother comes in my bed to get warmed up at night, he starts kicking. At 7 weeks, the baby is already starting to kick, but the mother does not feel it until 41/2 months.

At dinner or supper when Tommy likes to eat, he has to swallow all of his food, this is the same swallowing that Tommy started when he was 8 weeks in his mother's womb.

In Church, Tommy loves to climb across the pews, under the pews, across our laps, or say, "When is Church going to be over?" He can never sit still. This hyperness began when Tommy was inside his mother's womb at 9 weeks.

When Tommy wraps his fingers around my hand, or grabs a piece of candy, or tightly holds the string of a balloon so it won't sail off into the sky, those are the same hands that at 10-11 weeks can seize an object that is placed in the hand.

When Tommy and I wrestle on the floor, and we're laughing, and all of a sudden Tommy asks, "Lindsey, smell my feet!" Those are the same feet that were perfectly shaped at 11 weeks.

Tommy developed all of his body parts at 12 weeks. At 13-14 weeks into pregnancy, Tommy started pumping several quarts of blood through the body every day. At 18 weeks he was perfectly formed. Inside his mother, Tommy could have been legally killed, but outside of his mother, Tommy is fully protected by law.

How can anybody say that Tommy was not a human being when he was in his mother's womb? How can anybody say that Tommy couldn't feel pain in his mother's womb? How can anybody say that Tommy's mother can kill Tommy just because he is still in her womb? People who believe abortion is cool say that Tommy was just a mass of tissue inside his mother's womb. That is abortion's greatest lie.

As reported in a Telegraph Herald story

[Dimensio]

I wouldn't call myself "Godly", nor did I. I'm simply a theist, and recognize the patent absurdity of being an atheist and making the claim that life has some intrensic value beyond that of a rock, when both, according to the atheist, are the result of the same mindless process that did not have them in mind and cares nothing for them.

Well, I'm an atheist and I recognize that ultimately human life has no intrinsic value beyond that of a rock. However, to other humans -- myself included -- human life does have value beyond that of a rock.

Also, mindless or not, the processes that form a rock and the processes that form a human being are not the "same mindless process".

[marylina]

Thanks for the thread, miltonim.

I'm saving this picture, too, Gramma! It is wonderful, and very telling, even for someone who is trying NOT to see.

I can't wait to send it to my oldest daughter, who is eleven weeks pregnant with our first grandchild. I'm so thankful she knows what is truly inside her body, and that she cherishes every cell of that little life.

[SpookBrat]

Well, I'm an atheist and I recognize that ultimately human life has no intrinsic value beyond that of a rock. However, to other humans -- myself included -- human life does have value beyond that of a rock.

You totally lost me there.

[Dimensio]

" Well, I'm an atheist and I recognize that ultimately human life has no intrinsic value beyond that of a rock. However, to other humans -- myself included -- human life does have value beyond that of a rock."

You totally lost me there.

In what way have I lost you?

I don't believe that there is some "Greater Power" that assigns "value" to objects in the universe such that humans are somehow "superior" to rocks in the eyes of some imaginary greater being. I do believe that humans, as a whole, tend to value human life over rocks, and they behave accordingly.

Of course, I'm probably persona non grata around here anyway because I don't believe that human life begins exactly when the sperm fertilizes the egg -- I believe that it begins once there is actual brain activity (though because I can't say when, for certain, there is brain activity, I believe that the unborn should be protected from the earliest there could possibly be any neural activity).

[SpookBrat]

Thank you for your clarification. I understand what you are saying now. (We have been in discussions in the past, and I seem to recall misunderstanding you every time. LOL Maybe I'm trying too hard. Sorry about that).

I appreciate your pro-life point of view and respect the intelligent posts I’ve seen you make (although I can’t say I’ve agreed with you most of the time). :)

I don't believe that there is some "Greater Power" that assigns "value" to objects in the universe such that humans are somehow "superior" to rocks in the eyes of some imaginary greater being. I do believe that humans, as a whole, tend to value human life over rocks, and they behave accordingly.

And now for a great big AUUUGGGHHHH!!!!!. I'm sorry but I just don't get it, being an atheist and all. I really don't. I don't get it. I can't, I can't, I can't. I try to put myself in other’s shoes to feel what they feel and this is probably the only thing in life I just cannot comprehend or even fathom.

What have you got to lose by believing in God? It's so easy really. Can't you just try for 24 hours? Just give it a try and see what happens. I just absolutely cannot believe for one minute there ISN'T a "greater power" in the universe assigning a value of human superiority (over rocks and tadpoles).

UGH!!!!!! I'm sorry but I can't continue this discussion without getting off topic of this beautiful picture thread. You are welcome to freepmail me if you care to do so. Maybe if you would explain to me privately why you don’t believe there is a God, perhaps there is a chance I could come to understand your point of view better. I would like to understand

BTW, God is NOT imaginary. Just because you don’t believe he is here, doesn’t mean he isn’t.

[Exnihilo]

However, to other humans -- myself included -- human life does have value beyond that of a rock.

Excellent! So you'd agree then that insofar as human life has value to other humans, the one to determine the value of an unborn child would be the mother, right? Thus, you ought to be pro-choice! Of course, I am pro-life but I root my philosophy in theism.

[Dimensio]

However, to other humans -- myself included -- human life does have value beyond that of a rock.

Excellent! So you'd agree then that insofar as human life has value to other humans, the one to determine the value of an unborn child would be the mother, right? Thus, you ought to be pro-choice! Of course, I am pro-life but I root my philosophy in theism.

Er, no, I didn't say that, and no I don't agree that the one to determine the value of an unborn child would be the mother. I don't see how that logically follows from what I stated.

I'd come up with something more succicint, but my brain isn't functioning well because I'm a bit under the weather.

[Exnihilo]

That's okay.. I'm kind of getting sick of checking this thread anyway :) Good talking with you.

[Eddeche]

Can you explain to me, in terms of your beliefs, why life has any more value than say, a rock?

Well, 1st of all a rock isn't alive...

Unless maybe it's a talking rock...

That hangs out with a talking snake.

Are they both not the result of the same mindless process? Sure, you can shout assertions that life has value all day long, but if you have no foundation for doing so other than your personal whim, your shouting won't mean much to anyone with critical thinking skills.

Bud, your critical thinking skills couldn't fill your diaper.

[Tuscaloosa Goldfinch]

Condolences from someone who has been there. My miscarriage cemented my pro-life stance. People said,"why are you so upset, it wasn't really a baby?" I had previously carried a baby to full term, and knew the developmental stages of pre-born children, and that the embryo carried a combination of my DNA and that of my husband. He/she -- I never knew which, was a separate individual, with the same DNA at that age as at 95.

It is very difficult for women emotionally to miscarry, lots of hugs and understanding go along way. Grieve with her -- A word to the wise ....

[GEC]

Thanks. We have grieved together and are now trying again. Whatever parts of us were able to develop there could obviously not grow enough to continue living. We're really glad that it didn't happen later in the pregnancy, but this was hard enough.

[SpookBrat]

I don’t know what to say to you, because as I stated above, I do not understand atheism very well…..therefore can not respond intelligently.

I think it’s very, very, very tragic of you to put the only true and living God in the same category with Allah/Brahma/Cthulhu/Uri Geller/John Edwards/Bill Clinton…John Edwards? Bill Clinton???? BILL CLINTON???????? GROSS!!!

"Try it for 24 hours."

Ummm…I did…I tried it for about 4 years. Well, maybe I just tried Agnosticism, bordering on Atheism. When I say I don't understand it very well, I mean I don't understand why someone else could deny God. I know why I did it...I was a miserable human being and hated him. I wanted nothing to do with any belief in a supreme being or any stupid, ignorant, cultish organized religion. There is no God…humans made it all up. We are all on our own. But I can't put that off on you or any other atheist. You probably have your own reasons. Mine was because my heart was full of hate, and it was stubborn and rebellious. I didn’t want anyone, including a made up supreme being telling me what to do.

[Exnihilo]

Bud, you can't accept the conclusions of your own silly beliefs. I'm amazed that your reasoning is "because it's alive". So what?? Are they, or are they not both the result of the same mindless process of material causation? If so, then you cannot assign one value and the other none. In your head, you might, but it would not be an objective value, and my argument would still hold, and the pro-choice position would be reached. If you're too ignorant to follow my reasoning, which isn't just mine but many other philosophers, then you *are* a diaper. :) Bye now.

[Eddeche]

Bud, you can't accept the conclusions of your own silly beliefs. I'm amazed that your reasoning is "because it's alive". So what?? Are they, or are they not both the result of the same mindless process of material causation?

Yes.

If so, then you cannot assign one value and the other none. In your head, you might, but it would not be an objective value, and my argument would still hold, and the pro-choice position would be reached.

Then why am I not pro-choice ?

[Askel5]

Tadpoles and Babies