For Whom Did Christ Die? - Calvinism

The Spurgeon Archives ^ | Delivered on Lord's-Day Morning, September 6th, 1874 | C.H. Spurgeon

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

May we all have such a free will! 917 posted on 1/24/02 8:04 AM Pacific by CCWoody

It's Friday, but Sunday's comin'.

[White Mountain]

Your definition of free will in #910:

Free Will: man enjoys the uninhibited freedom of action to do whatsoever he Wants to do, independent of any internal or external compulsion or constraint.

And then, you immediately propose that God has imposed a completely controlling external compulsion and constraint. (You call it "causation".) God does not do that.

[xzins]

I answered your Tyre question yesterday with "False." (Late last night we were on the net together.)

The question is this: Is God ABLE (i.e., powerful enough) to make it so that mankind has real free choice?

Hey Ortho, et al, I've gotta run lunch down to my wife at the county seat. I'll get back with this later.

Gotta say this for you Calvinists. You are definitely a fun conversation!

[White Mountain]

OPie, by your own admission you keep copying and pasting the same Chorazin/Bethsaida stuff over and over (expecting a different result :-). You should post it once and link to it to save bandwidth.

People point out flaws in your argument, though, and you need to address them by modifying it. "This is what you are desperately trying to avoid... and you can't" avoid modifying it. Of course, you may not have anything left when you do, but at least you will be responsive to your feedback. 8o)

1. God grants us all the grace to repent.

2. God is just. He takes into account the light each person has been given. In Luke 12:48 He says, "But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

3. God has foreknowledge of all things, but He does not share that foreknowledge with us, especially with Calvinists who think they know what He knows.

4. The Bible does not tell us the final outcome of anyone. Augustine and Calvin may think they know those inhabitants of Tyre and Sidon are in hell now, but they don't. Neither do you. God in His mercy may have sent opportunities their way. Plus, He judges them individually.

5. The people of Chorazin and Bethsaida (and only those who rejected His ministry of their own free will) will be worse off in the Day of Judgment than the people of Tyre and Sidon. How can that be if the result is eternity in hell for both? Are we to invent "hotter parts of hell" for this purpose? As I said, you do not know their outcome.

6. You miss the point of what our Savior was teaching. Not that God withholds the grace to repent, but rather the consequences of rejecting the Greater Light.

7. And so forth. Many more excellent points have been made.

In short, there are many flaws in your argument, and you have not proved your case.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Since Jesus understands REAL FREE WILL, and since "all things were made by Him and without Him was not anything made that was made," and since He is the 2nd Person of the Trinity, and He is all-Powerful, therefore, be it affirmed that God is POWERFUL ENOUGH to make it so that mankind has real free will, to include the capability to "want" both sides of any issue.

Yup.

And be it now, further affirmed, that all of the spiritually-vital, God-pleasing Wants of Man's original Nature are lying dead in a pool of their own blood at the base of the Tree of Knowledge, murdered by Man's own hand. That ever since the Fall, his Will is free, but the Wants which inform his Will have been wholly remanded over to depravity and hatred of God.

Taken together, then, Man has free will, and Man hates God; and so he hates God freely and willfully.

[White Mountain]

OPie, by your own admission you keep copying and pasting the same Chorazin/Bethsaida stuff over and over (expecting a different result :-). You should post it once and link to it to save bandwidth.

People point out flaws in your argument, though, and you need to address them by modifying it. "This is what you are desperately trying to avoid... and you can't" avoid modifying it. Of course, you may not have anything left when you do, but at least you will be responsive to your feedback. 8o)

1. God grants us all the grace to repent.

2. God is just. He takes into account the light each person has been given. In Luke 12:48 He says, "But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

3. God has foreknowledge of all things, but He does not share that foreknowledge with us, especially with Calvinists who think they know what He knows.

4. The Bible does not tell us the final outcome of anyone. Augustine and Calvin may think they know those inhabitants of Tyre and Sidon are in hell now, but they don't. Neither do you. God in His mercy may have sent opportunities their way. Plus, He judges them individually.

5. The people of Chorazin and Bethsaida (and only those who rejected His ministry of their own free will) will be worse off in the Day of Judgment than the people of Tyre and Sidon. How can that be if the result is eternity in hell for both? Are we to invent "hotter parts of hell" for this purpose? As I said, you do not know their outcome.

6. You miss the point of what our Savior was teaching. Not that God withholds the grace to repent, but rather the consequences of rejecting the Greater Light.

7. And so forth. Many more excellent points have been made.

In short, there are many flaws in your argument, and you have not proved your case.

[xzins]

Hey friend, see #919.

[White Mountain]

Your #843:

OPie, by your own admission you keep copying and pasting the same Chorazin/Bethsaida stuff over and over (expecting a different result :-). You should post it once and link to it to save bandwidth.

People point out flaws in your argument, though, and you need to address them by modifying it. "This is what you are desperately trying to avoid... and you can't" avoid modifying it. Of course, you may not have anything left when you do, but at least you will be responsive to your feedback. 8o)

1. God grants us all the grace to repent.

2. God is just. He takes into account the light each person has been given. In Luke 12:48 He says, "But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

3. God has foreknowledge of all things, but He does not share that foreknowledge with us, especially with Calvinists who think they know what He knows.

4. The Bible does not tell us the final outcome of anyone. Augustine and Calvin may think they know those inhabitants of Tyre and Sidon are in hell now, but they don't. Neither do you. God in His mercy may have sent opportunities their way. Plus, He judges them individually.

5. The people of Chorazin and Bethsaida (and only those who rejected His ministry of their own free will) will be worse off in the Day of Judgment than the people of Tyre and Sidon. How can that be if the result is eternity in hell for both? Are we to invent "hotter parts of hell" for this purpose? As I said, you do not know their outcome.

6. You miss the point of what our Savior was teaching. Not that God withholds the grace to repent, but rather the consequences of rejecting the Greater Light.

7. And so forth. Many more excellent points have been made.

In short, there are many flaws in your argument, and you have not proved your case.

[White Mountain]

Excellent point! Thank you!

[White Mountain]

Point made?

Your #791:

OPie, by your own admission you keep copying and pasting the same Chorazin/Bethsaida stuff over and over (expecting a different result :-). You should post it once and link to it to save bandwidth.

People point out flaws in your argument, though, and you need to address them by modifying it. "This is what you are desperately trying to avoid... and you can't" avoid modifying it. Of course, you may not have anything left when you do, but at least you will be responsive to your feedback. 8o)

1. God grants us all the grace to repent.

2. God is just. He takes into account the light each person has been given. In Luke 12:48 He says, "But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

3. God has foreknowledge of all things, but He does not share that foreknowledge with us, especially with Calvinists who think they know what He knows.

4. The Bible does not tell us the final outcome of anyone. Augustine and Calvin may think they know those inhabitants of Tyre and Sidon are in hell now, but they don't. Neither do you. God in His mercy may have sent opportunities their way. Plus, He judges them individually.

5. The people of Chorazin and Bethsaida (and only those who rejected His ministry of their own free will) will be worse off in the Day of Judgment than the people of Tyre and Sidon. How can that be if the result is eternity in hell for both? Are we to invent "hotter parts of hell" for this purpose? As I said, you do not know their outcome.

6. You miss the point of what our Savior was teaching. Not that God withholds the grace to repent, but rather the consequences of rejecting the Greater Light.

7. And so forth. Many more excellent points have been made.

In short, there are many flaws in your argument, and you have not proved your case.

[White Mountain]

One more time!

Your #798:

OPie, by your own admission you keep copying and pasting the same Chorazin/Bethsaida stuff over and over (expecting a different result :-). You should post it once and link to it to save bandwidth.

People point out flaws in your argument, though, and you need to address them by modifying it. "This is what you are desperately trying to avoid... and you can't" avoid modifying it. Of course, you may not have anything left when you do, but at least you will be responsive to your feedback. 8o)

1. God grants us all the grace to repent.

2. God is just. He takes into account the light each person has been given. In Luke 12:48 He says, "But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

3. God has foreknowledge of all things, but He does not share that foreknowledge with us, especially with Calvinists who think they know what He knows.

4. The Bible does not tell us the final outcome of anyone. Augustine and Calvin may think they know those inhabitants of Tyre and Sidon are in hell now, but they don't. Neither do you. God in His mercy may have sent opportunities their way. Plus, He judges them individually.

5. The people of Chorazin and Bethsaida (and only those who rejected His ministry of their own free will) will be worse off in the Day of Judgment than the people of Tyre and Sidon. How can that be if the result is eternity in hell for both? Are we to invent "hotter parts of hell" for this purpose? As I said, you do not know their outcome.

6. You miss the point of what our Savior was teaching. Not that God withholds the grace to repent, but rather the consequences of rejecting the Greater Light.

7. And so forth. Many more excellent points have been made.

In short, there are many flaws in your argument, and you have not proved your case.

[connectthedots]

Obviously, the key sentence is a substantial difference between the idea of "concealed within Himself" and "hidden from Himself". The difference is glaring to a Calvinist.

In my quote, the "himself" clearly is in reference to man, not God, so there really appears to be no difference in the meaning. I found the quote in Palmer's The Five Points of Calvinism, so it is not like it was from an anti-Calvinism source.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

In short, there are many flaws in your argument, and you have not proved your case. 924 posted on 1/24/02 8:17 AM Pacific by White Mountain

Nope. 'Fraid you're mistaken.

In your 7 points, only one would be fatal to my case, as I think you will yourself see (and I certainly do understand well enough the proper construction of a valid logical argument to submit this analysis): the idea that Tyre and Sidon, and Sodom, did not end up in Hell Everlasting for their Non-Repentance. For it cannot be denied that God did withhold from them the Grace of miracles which He foreknew with perfect clarity would most certainly have brought about their free choice to Repent; the anti-predestinarian can see this in Matthew 11, and knows it to be utterly destructive to his position.

Thus to avoid the doctrine of Absolute Reprobation (for God's free choice in this matter did pre-destine them to Not Repent), we would have to suppose that these verses are "not the end of the story" for Tyre, Sidon, and Sodom, and that they were offered a "second chance" after Death, or in Hell itself, etc.

The Mormons do make this supposition, a heresy on top of other heresies, which allows them to escape Absolute Reprobation in this passage. But for a Christian who affirms that those who die in their iniquities go to Hell, and that the sentence of Hell is everlasting without exception, we combine the decision of God in Matthew 11 to withhold miraculous Grace of Penitence from Sodom, combine it with Jude 6-7:

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

And are left with Absolute Reprobation, no exceptions, no escape clause.

I will readily admit that the Mormon heresy of completely re-working the orthodox Christian doctrine of Hell allows them to escape Absolute Reprobation in Matthew 11, but for Non-Mormons, this is not an option. And it is the only logical option which would "work" to escape Absolute Reprobation in this passage.

[connectthedots]

OP to GWB: That's pretty much all I have to say, and I'll ask that any responses directed to those points be sent me by Private FReepMail.

A sure indication tha OP has lost the argument with GWB.

[White Mountain]

Your #919 again:

God is POWERFUL ENOUGH to make it so that mankind has real free will, to include the capability to "want" both sides of any issue.

... and that is just what He has done!

All of Calvinism lies in ruin at your feet, thanks to this one post! You have carried all before you!

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

(In your 7 points, only one would be fatal to my case, as I think you will yourself see)... Here, I'll even demonstrate my point for you. You're welcome:

1.) God grants us all the grace to repent.

Argument Denied, on grounds that God knows how much Grace will actually result in a Man choosing Repentance, and He dispenses Grace variably, as He sees fit. With some, He rips open the heavens and manifests Himself to them in visible power and glory on the road to Damascus; with others He does not. God foreknew how much Grace would be required to predestine Sodom to a choice of Repentance (performance of miracles equivalent to Capernaum), and He chose not to, thereby predestining Sodom to Damnation instead. Your Argument fails.

2.) God is just. He takes into account the light each person has been given. In Luke 12:48 He says, "But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

Argument Denied, on grounds that even if true, it is irrelevant. If Tyre and Sidon are burning even now in Hell, it remains true that harsher judgment is reserved to Chorazin and Bethsaida. Perhaps the fires of hell burn hotter for them; but if God predestined Tyre and Sidon to Non-Repentance by His own Election, you still have a doctrine of Absolute Reprobation and are merely arguing the details of the ultimate Judgment. Your Argument fails.

3.) God has foreknowledge of all things, but He does not share that foreknowledge with us, especially with Calvinists who think they know what He knows.

Argument Denied: incorrect premise. He certainly revealed one aspect of His foreknowledge in Matthew 11; He tells us quite directly that He foreknew the performance of Capernaum-equivalent miracles in Sodom would have predestined them to freely choosing Repentance. He chose not to, choosing to leave them instead in Non-Repentance unto Damnation. Your Argument fails.

4.) The Bible does not tell us the final outcome of anyone. Augustine and Calvin may think they know those inhabitants of Tyre and Sidon are in hell now, but they don't. Neither do you. God in His mercy may have sent opportunities their way. Plus, He judges them individually. ~~ 5.) The people of Chorazin and Bethsaida (and only those who rejected His ministry of their own free will) will be worse off in the Day of Judgment than the people of Tyre and Sidon. How can that be if the result is eternity in hell for both? Are we to invent "hotter parts of hell" for this purpose? As I said, you do not know their outcome.

As I said, this point alone would be fatal to my position -- if its suppositions were true. We know that Capernaum will be judged more harshly than Sodom, for this the Lord tells us; but unless we subscribe to the Mormon dogma that Sodom may have been offered a "second chance" after Death or even in Hell, it is otherwise not logically possible to escape Absolute Reprobation in Matthew 11.

Mormons can evade Absolute Predestination in Matthew 11. Christians cannot.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

OP to GWB: That's pretty much all I have to say, and I'll ask that any responses directed to those points be sent me by Private FReepMail. ~~ A sure indication tha OP has lost the argument with GWB.

GWB and I are not even in direct argument with eachother in the first place. Our disagreement concerns an outstanding fellowship-abrogation between GWB and certain others, not between GWB and myself.

But, you may continue to give an imaginary play-by-play of GWB's "argument" with me if you like. I don't mind reading creative fiction.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I answered your Tyre question yesterday with "False."

Great. Now, precisely which clause is False?

• Did God not foreknow that the performance of Capernaum-equivalent miracles in Sodom would suffice to bring Sodom to Repentance?
• Or was He unable to choose to perform these miracles?

Which is it?

[RnMomof7]

What answer would you give to yourself?

On the day that God found me ,as I wept in His presence I kept asking that question X.."Why me Lord .Why me??" Why would the God of the Universe want to fellowship with me??How could the God of creation love me?? Trust me there is little to love in me.....there is nothing of worth ...and today 25 years later I weep at the words of "And can it be?" And I repeat "Why me Lord ,Why me?. I did not look for Him..but He knew right where I was.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

If you do not understand how truly humbling that is..there is little I can say

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

For it is not right for man to unrestraindedly to search out things that the Lord has willed be hidden from himself

If this really is Palmer's quote of the Institutes, I think he just botched Calvin's latin. The phrasing should be "things that the Lord has willed be hidden from him" (i.e., hidden from Man), not "hidden from himself" (a botched translation).

However, your Beveridge citation is the authoritative translation of Institutes anyway. "For it is not right that man should with impunity pry into things which the Lord has been pleased to conceal within himself".